Do you support Race base AA
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  Do you support Race base AA
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Author Topic: Do you support Race base AA  (Read 12826 times)
Nym90
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2004, 11:51:29 AM »

Here's something to ponder....

There is no scientific definition of race. It is entirely self-identification. If I decide to say I'm black, no one can tell me I'm not.

I don't know if anyone has ever thought of that before, but if the word gets out, people might start "becoming" black just to get the race-based preference. There would be absolutely nothing that could be done about this legally.

Sort of emphasizes how it doesn't make sense to give a preference on the basis of something for which there is no scientific or biological definition. Not only is the concept of race entirely a construct of the human mind, your OWN race is entirely within your mind too!
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© tweed
Miamiu1027
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2004, 04:07:17 PM »

Nym90,

You are not black.
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migrendel
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2004, 09:09:27 PM »

Voting Rights Act? If you want to go back further, the Fifteenth Amendment? Give me a break. There is still political disenfranchisement, as well as discrimination. Slavery has nothing to do with this program, considering that it is designed to respond to contemporary disparities, but Flyers brought up ancestry, so I had to enter that terrain.

And Nym, there might not be a scientific definition of race, but there sure as Hell is a social one.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2004, 09:18:56 PM »

Kinda mixed on race based AA...do I like that it exists? No. Do I understand that it might be necessary? Yes.

I'd actually favor a class based AA.

It seems to make sense.

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Nym90
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« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2004, 11:47:20 PM »

I realize race exists as a social construct. My point is that it seems rather shaky legally to give people a preference based on self-identification!

Tweed, I don't consider myself black, no, but as there is no definition of how much pigment one must have in one's skin in order to be black, I could be black if I wanted to be. My point was that you get to choose your own race, at least from a purely legal standpoint.
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TeePee4Prez
Flyers2004
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2004, 01:27:16 AM »

Are you really, Flyers2004, going to attempt to analogize the plight of the slaves, who were property when brought to this country after being kidnapped, to Irish Americans, who had the benefit of speaking English, not being owned, and not being denied the right to vote as recently as forty years ago?

Not saying African Americans didn't suffer.  I can to an extent see AA for older African Americans in the South.  it's too close to call.  Compared to Irish Americans....  hey at least the slaves got fed.  It's like comparing apples to oranges.  I consider myself a moderate liberal, but I know World/American history fairly well, but I am not about to be subjected to one-sided violin playing either.
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Nym90
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« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2004, 10:31:24 AM »

Yes, good points.

In order to defend race-based AA you have to prove that there is discrimination on the basis of race and race alone, independent of any other factors. I don't believe that's the case. Certainly there is racial discrimination, but I think that there is far more discrimination on the basis of income. Since blacks have lower average incomes than whites, it ends up appearing as though blacks are suffering discrimination.

Yes, there is still some racial discrimination, but there is far more discrimination on the basis of income. Rich black people have a huge advantage over poor whites.
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Storebought
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« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2004, 11:22:11 AM »

Absolutely not. It degrades the minority, infuriates the majority, and gives too much power to arrogant liberals.
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KEmperor
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« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2004, 12:02:43 PM »

No to any racially based government policies.  And I oppose racial discrimination by private organizations as well.
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TeePee4Prez
Flyers2004
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« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2004, 12:18:40 PM »

Yes, good points.

In order to defend race-based AA you have to prove that there is discrimination on the basis of race and race alone, independent of any other factors. I don't believe that's the case. Certainly there is racial discrimination, but I think that there is far more discrimination on the basis of income. Since blacks have lower average incomes than whites, it ends up appearing as though blacks are suffering discrimination.

Yes, there is still some racial discrimination, but there is far more discrimination on the basis of income. Rich black people have a huge advantage over poor whites.

Being from Michigan, what do you think about U of Mich's admission policies?  One of the VERY few things I applaud Bush on is speaking against U of Michigan's 20 points for being a minority.  That is higher than a perfect SAT score!!!  I can see parental income as a factor, but not that.  A perfect SAT score there is 4 points.  
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Nym90
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« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2004, 12:46:13 PM »

I'm an alumnus of U of Michigan.

Yes, I agree that the policy should have been stricken down. It was way too biased.

Of course, being an athlete got you a 20 point bonus too....universities are just expected to favor athletes though I guess. Smiley
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TeePee4Prez
Flyers2004
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« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2004, 01:07:57 AM »

I'm an alumnus of U of Michigan.

Yes, I agree that the policy should have been stricken down. It was way too biased.

Of course, being an athlete got you a 20 point bonus too....universities are just expected to favor athletes though I guess. Smiley

20 points for athletes?Huh Damn that's terrible.  So a minority athlete gets 40 points whereas a guy with a perfect SAT and a legacy only gets 8???  Even as as geneally liberal person I find that baffling and grossly wrong.
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classical liberal
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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2004, 09:30:23 AM »

I realize race exists as a social construct. My point is that it seems rather shaky legally to give people a preference based on self-identification!

Tweed, I don't consider myself black, no, but as there is no definition of how much pigment one must have in one's skin in order to be black, I could be black if I wanted to be. My point was that you get to choose your own race, at least from a purely legal standpoint.

7.38 mol melanin per skin cell.
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Nym90
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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2004, 02:22:55 PM »

Sadly, yes Flyers2004....that's why the basketball players all major in kinesiology or some such....
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angus
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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2004, 03:04:43 PM »

Hell no!  Ever had one of your students come up to you and say she didn't get into Harvard because they had their quota of Asians this year already?  No?  I have.  And they need more seats for black and brown "B" students.  Sorry, no more "A" students this year at Harvard.  We have all the India and China people we need.  Screw that.  I'll fight ya over that.  It's immoral, it's wrong.  It's bigoted toward blacks and hispanics, and puts whites and asians in a very awkward position.  It's anti-egalitarian.  This must end!  Today!
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Tory
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« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2004, 03:48:01 PM »

No
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M
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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2004, 10:45:51 PM »
« Edited: May 27, 2004, 10:47:21 PM by M at Brandeis »

And after Angus spake the liberals did grow ashamed. And Shelia Jackson Lee did turn to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and she did speak thusly, "What ill hath we wrought? Surely we must needs rectify this, acoording to the words of angus." And Ruth Bader Ginsburg did reply thusly, "Whatsoever could have prompted these misdeeds? Yea, verily we must needs set this aright". And so it was that it did end, today.

I agree with you completely, its a nasty, nasty system. In the end it screws the blacks and Latin Americans over much more completely than the whites and Asians, though, because every time someone sees a "disadvantaged minority" in a position of authority, they wonder "did they get their through their own sweat and talent, or were they given it because of melanin levels?" In this way it actually encourages continued discrimination.
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Harry
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« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2004, 11:11:52 PM »

A friend of mine, 2nd in the class of 400, 1600 SAT, 235 PSAT, 35 ACT, really wanted to go to Rice, and set up an interview with them, was rejected by Rice.
Another african-american friend of mine, class rank in the 40's, 1500 SAT, 197 PSAT, didn't care about Rice, much less set up an interview, was accepted.

Fair?
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WMS
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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2004, 11:14:32 PM »

Hell NO! In one of those books on The Radical Center or something like that, AA was mentioned...it appears that the groups that really benefit from AA are 1. Middle-Class White Females [I've seen this one personally during my years in college - women who are further up the socioeconomic ladder than me getting tons of free aid while I had to scrape, beg, and borrow for every cent] and 2. Recent Immigrants. Not exactly the disadvantaged or those who can make a claim that AA is needed to 'rectify past discrimination over decades and centuries', are they? And it is reverse discrimination in any event.
This is also the answer to the question:

"What was the second thing that made WMS run screaming away from his liberal upbringing?"
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opebo
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« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2004, 11:15:23 PM »

The group that benefits most from Race based AA are Republican candidates Wink
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Harry
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« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2004, 11:16:35 PM »

every african-american people who i've seen benefit from AA has been a wealthy, well-off one who didn't need it.  it doesn't work.
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2004, 12:22:40 AM »


I have disagreed with some of your posts in the past, but have (generally) respected your posts.

Are you doing a RightWingNut and just taking a bizarre position for the heck of it?

Oh, and BTW, I believe that individuals should be judged on their merits, not their race.
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TeePee4Prez
Flyers2004
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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2004, 02:00:03 AM »

A friend of mine, 2nd in the class of 400, 1600 SAT, 235 PSAT, 35 ACT, really wanted to go to Rice, and set up an interview with them, was rejected by Rice.
Another african-american friend of mine, class rank in the 40's, 1500 SAT, 197 PSAT, didn't care about Rice, much less set up an interview, was accepted.

Fair?

The African American's credentials are impressive mind you, but no that's not right.
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migrendel
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« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2004, 11:59:40 AM »

I cannot help but point out that such differentials are far outweighed by the importance of greater minority representation, and that's not to say that the minority was a total boob, either. The credentials indicate that the minority had a head on his shoulders.
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Nym90
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« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2004, 12:07:20 PM »

Greater minority representation is important, absolutely. I support the concept of increasing diversity in the workplace, but I think that diversity has to do with a lot of other factors other than race.

I don't feel that it is right to just assume that because someone is of a particular race (which can't even be scientifically defined anyway!) that they will automatically contribute more value to the organization.

Yes, there should be other factors taken into account besides just raw test scores. People can't be assessed by numbers alone. I don't mind taking race into account as one of a multitude of factors when evaluating someone, but I still feel that promoting people of lower incomes into higher positions to help reduce inequality is a far better goal for the betterment of society as a whole.

I guess it boils down to who you really feel is being discriminated against most, and I think that far and away the most discrimination in our society is in favor of the wealthy and against the poor. If you disagree and feel that blacks are discriminated against more than the poor, I respect that, but my experience in life hasn't shown that to be the case for me.
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