40% of British Muslims want Sharia Law.

[afleitch]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/02/19/ixportaltop.html

'Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.

The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity. Overall, the findings depict a Muslim community becoming more radical and feeling more alienated from mainstream society, even though 91 per cent still say they feel loyal to Britain. The most startling finding is the high level of support for applying sharia law in "predom-inantly Muslim" areas of Britain.'

It goes on to say 41% oppose Sharia law, but 40% for its introduction is still worringly high.

Patrick Sookhdeo makes an interesting argument about the 'state within a state' mentality in Muslim communities.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia219.xml

[Kevin]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

[Gabu]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

Including the 60% (that's over half) who didn't say they wanted Sharia law?

[afleitch]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

Including the 60% (that's over half) who didn't say they wanted Sharia law?

Well only 41% said they did not want Sharia, I do not know how the others voted until I buy the newspaper in the morning. But 40% for is a sizeable minority.

Having said that I certainly don't agree with Kevin's opinion.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

Including the 60% (that's over half) who didn't say they wanted Sharia law?

Uh.... Yes?

[Beet]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

Including the 60% (that's over half) who didn't say they wanted Sharia law?

Well only 41% said they did not want Sharia, I do not know how the others voted until I buy the newspaper in the morning. But 40% for is a sizeable minority.

Having said that I certainly don't agree with Kevin's opinion.

It's not just Muslims who are vulnerable to it. An Italian court recently decided that a child rapist could basically get off with a very light sentence just because his victim was not a virgin. This is in 99% Catholic Italy, very few Muslims there. Isn't that de facto the same type of thing that you'd get under Sharia law? So I wouldn't say it's an issue of being a Muslim or not. Although the pluralist Muslims do need to speak up more.

[opebo]

It's not just Muslims who are vulnerable to it. An Italian court recently decided that a child rapist could basically get off with a very light sentence just because his victim was not a virgin.

Was this an actual rape or just the fake 'statutory rape'?

[Democratic Hawk]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/02/19/ixportaltop.html

'Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.

They'll have to want because they are not bloody well going to get it. If they want Sharia Law, they can jolly well bugger off to some place that has it. End of

Dave

[Cubby]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry Afleitch, Muslims piss me off and scare me, at the same time.

[TB]

Before you pass judgment please bare in mind that Sharia Law is the law of Allah. The law that can only exists in the heavens(7). Sharia Law on Earth will never be the law of Allah. It will always remain a human imitation of the divine law which no human law will never come close to. For most Muslims Sharia Law is not about punishing people, but about applying the most righteous law on humans. If you ask a Muslim to reject Sharia you ask him or her to reject his or her own religion. Sharia can be interpreted in many ways just like Islam. The public belief that Sharia Law=bad is not always right. You can believe in Sharia Law and still believe in democracy and human rights.

[Platypus]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry Afleitch, Muslims piss me off and scare me, at the same time.

Radicals piss me off-whatever they are radical about. Radical Islam is one of the worst variants, but Islam doesn't scare me or piss me off, and 'muslims' certainly don't.

[afleitch]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry Afleitch, Muslims piss me off and scare me, at the same time.

And me. I am worried our innercities will become ghettos with a law of their own. I also want the government to stop associating itself with Muslim leaders who tuirn out to be as extreme as the other leaders they wish to avoid. I will not stand for any dilution of law or civil rights to appeal to one community gripped with paranoia and a 'victim' mentality.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nothing remotely suprising about a large minority of a minority group wanting that sort of thing; Scotland still has it's Catholic schools and I'm pretty sure that Manchester and some other cities with a history of Irish immigration do as well (they were still around in the '80's at the very least). And then there's enforced bi-lingualism in Wales (I still think that having Welsh names on signs in the likes of Monmouth, Welshpool or Radnor is deeply comical). Cornwall used to have seperate courts for Tin miners until the 19th century, County Durham had it's own courts until the '70's or so (and I'm pretty sure these were organised along semi-religious lines for a long time)... it's not like supporting some form of two-tier system in anything is especially unusual or especially sinister. Frankly I'm a little suprised that the number in favour wasn't higher.

As for Sharia law itself... it's extremely disorganised and is barely useful as a legal system (and it's debatable what is and isn't Sharia etc), not that most Muslims are aware of that (just as most Britons in general aren't aware how absurdly byzantine the legal system is). Besides most people wouldn't mind if the death penalty was brought back for serious offenses; how is this *any* worse than that? (especially when you bear in mind how the death penalty was traditionaly applied here).

As for the general topic of integration and all that; a lot still needs to be done about that (and the fault for the lack of integration is NOT repeat NOT usually the fault of the various Kashmiri/Punjabi/Bangladeshi/etc communities. Thinks like the Biradari system haven't exactly helped, but were it not for ambitious local politicians it'd have died off years ago. The main reason for the lack of integration among Bangladeshis is the racist policies of [then] Liberal Democrat controlled Tower Hamlets council in the '80's and '90's) but overall the pattern is no where near as bleak as the media likes to paint it (the media hasn't got a clue on this sort of issue).

...and finally... the record of pollsters at polling Muslims is *not* impressive... to put it mildly... Labour's majority would be quite a lot smaller if it was...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Oh, Pym... have you *ever* actually met any Muslims? I think you should come to Bradford at some point; the food is very nice for one thing...

Random fact: if polls are to be trusted, the % of Britons who don't believe in Evolution is higher than the % of British Muslims who want Sharia Law in predominantly Muslim areas*

*Not that there are actually many of these... I can make a list if anyone is interested...

[Cubby]

Oh, Pym... have you *ever* actually met any Muslims? I think you should come to Bradford at some point; the food is very nice for one thing...

Random fact: if polls are to be trusted, the % of Britons who don't believe in Evolution is higher than the % of British Muslims who want Sharia Law in predominantly Muslim areas*

*Not that there are actually many of these... I can make a list if anyone is interested...

Yes I've met some.

I also know that they were the ones who killed Pym Fortuyn (the real one)
"Animal Rights activist"- worst Euphimism of the 21st Century.

Hispanic Immigrants in America are socially conservative, but fit into the framework of our society. European Muslims (from what I can tell never having been to Europe) want Sharia Law, stonings and executions carried out in downtown London, Paris if they get their way. (Not Turkish immigrants in Germany cause I hear they are more normal.) The thought of rapidly multiplying medieval-minded Muslim populations in Europe is a scary thought indeed.

You don't see people in Latin America threatening to kill the Minutemen Militia, yet death threats are all I ever hear when Muslims are offended.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes I've met some.

When? How many? Where were they from? And for how long?

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No they weren't
 

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I suppose you think that the Black Helicopters control everything as well, right?

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...about as well as most South Asian immigrants who happen to be Muslim have fitted into British society...
And both have fitted in better than blacks in American society.

So?

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That's just ignorant paranoia. Sorry, nothing else to call it.

[minionofmidas]

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Not that that's been doing the Turks' integration much good... let's face it: integration of an immigrant group is largely something the majority group does. Failure of integration is largely something the majority is to blame for.

According to a recent poll by Professor Faruk Sen The Zentrum für Türkeistudien, which is really just Professor Faruk Sen (there should be a little cedille at the bottom of the S. It's pronounced Shen. Anyways.) 21% of Turkish immigrants and their decendants in Germany believe the German constitution can not be reconciled with the Koran, which provoked some CDU BaWü state politician into howls of anti-immigrant aggression. (EDIT - he basically said that these 20% of Turks in Germany should be deported right away.)
Mind you, there are about a million possible conclusions to be drawn from this figure (ie, "the Constitution must be destroyed", "we must work peacefully to change the relevant provisions of the constitution", "we live in a majority non-Islamic country, the Koran will just have to lump it", "and that's precisely why I don't consider myself a Muslima anymore").
Mind you, Sen has been polling that question every couple of years since 1977 or something, and this is the lowest figure ever recorded.
No matter.

[minionofmidas]

This is a sign that you Brit's need to stop hugging and kissing these people and start booting them out and to send them all home. 

Including the 60% (that's over half) who didn't say they wanted Sharia law?

Well only 41% said they did not want Sharia, I do not know how the others voted until I buy the newspaper in the morning. But 40% for is a sizeable minority.

Having said that I certainly don't agree with Kevin's opinion.

It's not just Muslims who are vulnerable to it. An Italian court recently decided that a child rapist could basically get off with a very light sentence just because his victim was not a virgin. This is in 99% Catholic Italy, very few Muslims there. Isn't that de facto the same type of thing that you'd get under Sharia law? So I wouldn't say it's an issue of being a Muslim or not. Although the pluralist Muslims do need to speak up more.

Yeah, the Rome Cassation Court was at it again. They've been throwing out verdicts against rapists with ridiculous reasons like this for decades. And most Italians are quite angry at 'em. (I remember one, about 10-15 years ago, where they aquitted a rapist because the victim had worn tight jeans, which "proved" it was consensual sex and no rape had taken place.)

[freek]

Yes I've met some.

I also know that they were the ones who killed Pym Fortuyn (the real one)
"Animal Rights activist"- worst Euphimism of the 21st Century.

Pim, not Pym. Dutch for "Bill".

Volkert van der Graaf was not a muslim. He lived in towns where hardly any muslims live (Wageningen, Harderwijk). He was born in Zeeland province, hardly any muslim lives there. Although he said he killed Fortuyn because he considered him dangerous for his anti immigration policies, it is more probable he killed him for his policies on animal rights, and more specifically on Fortuyn's ideas about keeping animals for their fur.

[dazzleman]

Nothing remotely suprising about a large minority of a minority group wanting that sort of thing; Scotland still has it's Catholic schools and I'm pretty sure that Manchester and some other cities with a history of Irish immigration do as well (they were still around in the '80's at the very least). And then there's enforced bi-lingualism in Wales (I still think that having Welsh names on signs in the likes of Monmouth, Welshpool or Radnor is deeply comical). Cornwall used to have seperate courts for Tin miners until the 19th century, County Durham had it's own courts until the '70's or so (and I'm pretty sure these were organised along semi-religious lines for a long time)... it's not like supporting some form of two-tier system in anything is especially unusual or especially sinister. Frankly I'm a little suprised that the number in favour wasn't higher.

As for Sharia law itself... it's extremely disorganised and is barely useful as a legal system (and it's debatable what is and isn't Sharia etc), not that most Muslims are aware of that (just as most Britons in general aren't aware how absurdly byzantine the legal system is). Besides most people wouldn't mind if the death penalty was brought back for serious offenses; how is this *any* worse than that? (especially when you bear in mind how the death penalty was traditionaly applied here).

As for the general topic of integration and all that; a lot still needs to be done about that (and the fault for the lack of integration is NOT repeat NOT usually the fault of the various Kashmiri/Punjabi/Bangladeshi/etc communities. Thinks like the Biradari system haven't exactly helped, but were it not for ambitious local politicians it'd have died off years ago. The main reason for the lack of integration among Bangladeshis is the racist policies of [then] Liberal Democrat controlled Tower Hamlets council in the '80's and '90's) but overall the pattern is no where near as bleak as the media likes to paint it (the media hasn't got a clue on this sort of issue).

...and finally... the record of pollsters at polling Muslims is *not* impressive... to put it mildly... Labour's majority would be quite a lot smaller if it was...

Al, you're really dragging a few red herrings through here.

To compare the preference of some Catholics for Catholic schools to Sharia law is absurd.  Sending a child to Catholic school doesn't affect the rest of society.

Your death penalty comparison is also absurd.  To have a death penalty for a few narrow defined, heinous crimes is a far cry from saying that a woman should be stoned for going outside without her burkah, and seeking to forcibly impose that not only on your own community, but on those who predated you and, foolishly, welcome you to their society.

Europeans (and Americans too) need to reclaim control of their/our values in their own countries.  It is absurd to allow interlopers to redefine your society's culture and values in a way that the long-standing majority doesn't want.  What do you think you owe these people?  I've got the answer -- NOTHING.

[Democratic Hawk]

Before you pass judgment please bare in mind that Sharia Law is the law of Allah. The law that can only exists in the heavens(7). Sharia Law on Earth will never be the law of Allah. It will always remain a human imitation of the divine law which no human law will never come close to. For most Muslims Sharia Law is not about punishing people, but about applying the most righteous law on humans. If you ask a Muslim to reject Sharia you ask him or her to reject his or her own religion. Sharia can be interpreted in many ways just like Islam. The public belief that Sharia Law=bad is not always right. You can believe in Sharia Law and still believe in democracy and human rights.

I don't care whether Sharia Law is 'good' or not. The UK is not, never has been, and never will be a majority Islamic nation. We remain a predominantly Chrisitian nation (though I suspect more people attend mosques than attend church nowadays - but that's not the point). Sharia Law has no place in British society. If Muslims want Sharia Law they know where to go. Granting certain areas Sharia Law would be one accommodating step too far

Dave

[Filuwaúrdjan]

To compare the preference of some Catholics for Catholic schools to Sharia law is absurd.  Sending a child to Catholic school doesn't affect the rest of society.

I should have been clearer; the Catholic schools in question are state schools (not private) and were largely set up due to pressure from a large immigrant community (in this case Irish).
Now the effect of wanting seperate schools isn't the same as wanting a seperate legal system in mostly immigrant areas, but the reasons for *wanting* it are exactly the same.
Or for that matter, the Islamic bank accounts (ie; no interest) that are now availiable in a couple of places.

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No it isn't; this wasn't a reference to the death penalty in the U.S, but the way it was applied when it was still the law here (which was sadistic in the extreme). Before certain reforms in the 20th century, English law was every bit as needlessly cruel, sadistic, arbitary and pointlessly brutal as the worst aspects of the most warped interpretations of Sharia in certain areas (I'm thinking of northern Nigeria here).

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I don't think that many people are calling for the introduction of stoning-for-not-covering-up.

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The poll didn't ask about the rest of society; the question was whether they wanted Sharia law in *predominantly Muslim areas* (but that wasn't what the headline was o/c).

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What has that got to do with this exactly?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't care whether Sharia Law is 'good' or not. The UK is not, never has been, and never will be a majority Islamic nation.

Well no, it hasn't and won't be one. And oddly enough the question didn't ask about the U.K as a whole (although the headline writers cunningly warped the poll to make it look as if it did).
O/c it also misses the point that there's been no *demand* from Muslims for Sharia law; it's a bit like asking people about the death penalty in a way... in that there might be some vague desire for it, but it's not seen as something to worry about.

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A lot of people think that, but it's nowhere near true (I think that more might than go to Sunday CofE services though; then again in terms of Sunday services the CofE has been behind the Catholics for years and might be behind the Free Churches now) Besides, Mosques aren't actually especially religious things for most British Muslims; it's a community thing. Most of the religious stuff goes on at home.

[dazzleman]

To compare the preference of some Catholics for Catholic schools to Sharia law is absurd.  Sending a child to Catholic school doesn't affect the rest of society.

I should have been clearer; the Catholic schools in question are state schools (not private) and were largely set up due to pressure from a large immigrant community (in this case Irish).
Now the effect of wanting seperate schools isn't the same as wanting a seperate legal system in mostly immigrant areas, but the reasons for *wanting* it are exactly the same.
Or for that matter, the Islamic bank accounts (ie; no interest) that are now availiable in a couple of places.

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No it isn't; this wasn't a reference to the death penalty in the U.S, but the way it was applied when it was still the law here (which was sadistic in the extreme). Before certain reforms in the 20th century, English law was every bit as needlessly cruel, sadistic, arbitary and pointlessly brutal as the worst aspects of the most warped interpretations of Sharia in certain areas (I'm thinking of northern Nigeria here).

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I don't think that many people are calling for the introduction of stoning-for-not-covering-up.

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The poll didn't ask about the rest of society; the question was whether they wanted Sharia law in *predominantly Muslim areas* (but that wasn't what the headline was o/c).

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What has that got to do with this exactly?

The issue of who controls the values and culture of society is exactly what this is all about.  These people want to forcibly impose extreme values on society as a whole, regardless of what they are actually saying.  Of course, every society has dominant values; the question is, which ones will they be?

By pushing for Sharia law, this is the first step to imposing their values on society.  It is also a way of refusing to mainstream themselves to the society in which they live.  I am not a believer in the efficasy of multicultural societies, and I don't believe that muslims areas should have a separate legal system, as they de facto already do in some places.

The behavior of muslims with respect to the Danish cartoons makes it clear enough that they wish to impose their values.  What I love the best is that these people have no problem with the most vile attacks on other religions, but they go nuts over a couple of cartoons.  They are psychotic.

[minionofmidas]

You know Daz, you can write very well, but I sometimes, just sometimes, wonder whether you actually can read.