Support the Civil Union Act

[Gustaf]

You would seriously vote AGAINST the bill without the amendment??? Why? I can see your argument for wanting to take it further, but if you lose that battle you would stop it altogether? That makes no sense at all to me.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

If the amendment cannot pass, what makes you think a piece of legislation that included adoption could?  Why is having civil unions minus adoptions worse than having no civil unions at all?

I don't like the bill without the amendement.

[The Dowager Mod]

the bill without the amendement is a half measure.
gay couples could still be discriminated against without the amendement.
that's why i don't like it.

[Gustaf]

the bill without the amendement is a half measure.
gay couples could still be discriminated against without the amendement.
that's why i don't like it.

How is it worse?

[The Dowager Mod]

the bill without the amendement is a half measure.
gay couples could still be discriminated against without the amendement.
that's why i don't like it.

How is it worse?

because it doesn't go far enough.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

But isn't going half-way better than not going anywhere?

[The Dowager Mod]

not always.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Okay, we'll just keep the bigotry we have now and you can vote with the bigots.  I hope you sleep well at night.

[JohnFKennedy]

not always.

So you would risk them getting no right to even join in a civil union if there was a slight chance they could get better?

[The Dowager Mod]

not always.

So you would risk them getting no right to even join in a civil union if there was a slight chance they could get better?

if the right to adopt isn't passed now it never will be.
without it the bill is worthless.
what rights does the bill confer without the amendement?
the right to file a joint tax return?
it's a feel good bill with no substance without the amendement.

[JohnFKennedy]

not always.

So you would risk them getting no right to even join in a civil union if there was a slight chance they could get better?

if the right to adopt isn't passed now it never will be.
without it the bill is worthless.
what rights does the bill confer without the amendement?
the right to file a joint tax return?
it's a feel good bill with no substance without the amendement.

I am sorry to say that your first comment is, in my opinion, bullsh*t. It is a lot easier for us to progress in small footsteps than to take giant leaps into the unknown. The bill grants homosexual couples all the rights of marriage except adoption, that is a pretty hefty move.

It is a step in the right direction which I can see passing now if people rally behind it as there are quite a few conservative senators who would vote against the amendment.

[migrendel]

Well, we are a hated minority, I grant you that. And it is easy to rationalize away our rights. But we can continue to be patronized with your baby steps, John F. Kennedy, and reverently treat you as if you were the expert on matters that you could never understand, at least on a personal level. I humbly ask you to grant us our full rights, even if it means the great leap into the unknown.

And you still haven't answered me? Why is the adoption exception in there? You merely countenance prejudice. Homosexual families are held to standards of perfection. If a child turns out badly, the parents' sexual orientation can be blamed by default, even though it could happen in any family. They are not allowed the complexity of normal families by those who will only give us the benefit of the doubt. I ask you, how can you account for the fact that any crack addict that doesn't use contraception can be a parent, but a loving couple is excluded? If you don't give me a good reason, I shall know, in conjunction with your vote on the Boss Act, that you could care less about civil rights, but want a line on your resume.

[JohnFKennedy]

Well, we are a hated minority, I grant you that. And it is easy to rationalize away our rights. But we can continue to be patronized with your baby steps, John F. Kennedy, and reverently treat you as if you were the expert on matters that you could never understand, at least on a personal level. I humbly ask you to grant us our full rights, even if it means the great leap into the unknown.

And you still haven't answered me? Why is the adoption exception in there? You merely countenance prejudice. Homosexual families are held to standards of perfection. If a child turns out badly, the parents' sexual orientation can be blamed by default, even though it could happen in any family. They are not allowed the complexity of normal families by those who will only give us the benefit of the doubt. I ask you, how can you account for the fact that any crack addict that doesn't use contraception can be a parent, but a loving couple is excluded? If you don't give me a good reason, I shall know, in conjunction with your vote on the Boss Act, that you could care less about civil rights, but want a line on your resume.

My reason was that at this time I thought it was more likely to pass with that clause in it, at a future date I was planning to remove that clause to bring it in line with my party platform and beliefs.

I actually didn't vote for the boss' act, I voted for the amendment, I did not vote on the act and said I would abstain without the amendment.

[migrendel]

Oh, damn it all and stand for nothing! How admirable. First, to contort a bill's language so it is meaningless and shall on continue to serve as a badge of servitude in this era of sexual Jim Crow, and then capitulate to your party.

[JohnFKennedy]

Oh, damn it all and stand for nothing! How admirable. First, to contort a bill's language so it is meaningless and shall on continue to serve as a badge of servitude in this era of sexual Jim Crow, and then capitulate to your party.

What do you mean?

The amendment made it so that if a medical doctor said there was a health risk to the baby or the mother's health they could get an abortion. It also added cases of rape and incest into it.

Perhaps I worded my comment or party platform poorly, it should be "and MY beliefs" as the party platform ties in with mine. I support civil unions with all the benefits of marriage, however, I am a realist and was trying to go for the less now rather than making an all out leap with no guarantee of success. The original bill, in my opinion, had a better chance of passing.

[migrendel]

It seems we have a  misunderstanding. I thought you were referring to the adoption amendment. But I want you to answer me, as you have avoided. Why is the adoption exception in the bill?

[JohnFKennedy]

It seems we have a  misunderstanding. I thought you were referring to the adoption amendment. But I want you to answer me, as you have avoided. Why is the adoption exception in the bill?

I stated why I put it in, many are against gay couples being allowed to adopt, I thought that the bill would be more likely to pass if it contained such a clause as there is a lot of bigoted hatred especially regarding that issue, I was going for a small step first, tread lightly my friend, it is a dangerous issue. If you check I voted for the amendment as if hughento votes against the original bill it will not pass so the amended version now seems to have a better chance.

I support the amendment, I was just waiting for a better time to bring it up.

[migrendel]

And by supporting that exception, you condone that bigotry. Congratulations for being such a champion of those with hatred in their hearts.

[JohnFKennedy]

And by supporting that exception, you condone that bigotry. Congratulations for being such a champion of those with hatred in their hearts.

That is not what I was doing, I was being realistic, going for something which I thought had a good chance of getting through having spoken to several others, and you will note, I DID vote FOR the amendment.

[migrendel]

There shall always be a tarnish there.

[JohnFKennedy]

There shall always be a tarnish there.

Very well, all are entitled to their own opinion.

I was merely going for the less now which I saw to be an easier victory.

[Gustaf]

There shall always be a tarnish there.

Very well, all are entitled to their own opinion.

I was merely going for the less now which I saw to be an easier victory.

It does not appear like certain members of the far left will be willing to act constructively on those issues. I am now contemplating leaving the Atlas Liberty Caucus, since I am beginning to feel dismayed at its prospects of prmoting those issues.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

This whole discussion is really starting to piss me off and make me regret my strong support for this legislation.  If those of us who support this act are just as bigoted as the religious right just because we think that a married heterosexual household should be the standard... then you might as well just count me among the bigots.

I should remind you that even giving a hint of supporting something like this in real politics could be a career-ender in my part of the country.  If its not worth the risk, people won't take them.

[Lunar]

You complain about inequality and yet are against bills that would give more equality.  Why?  Because it only increases it 99% instead of 100%, or 50% instead of 51%.  When in reality, pushing for that extra 1% will cause you to get nothing.