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Author Topic: Should there have ever been any troops in Vietnam?  (Read 7930 times)
Compassion Fills the Void
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2004, 07:17:05 pm »
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAA, South Vietnam was a corrupt military dictatorship. Peaceful? And it was in a way rightfully his.

No nation ever belongs to one man.  Leaders are there to serve their nation and not the other way around.

He didn't own it, but going by legal and fair elections he was the rightful ruler of all of Vietnam. He wasn't a nice guy but neither was the South.
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2004, 07:22:53 pm »
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Either we shouldn't have gotten involved or we should have won.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2004, 03:33:33 am »
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why? I haven't supported any wars since WWII.

You would have supported North Vietnam. You think that Che Guavara (a political thug) is a hero.
You are NOT a pacifist. You are degrading the word by saying that you are.
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2004, 07:10:55 am »
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No
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I wanna contribute to the chaos
I don't wanna watch and then complain,
'cause I am through finding blame
that is the decision that I have made
Justin
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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2004, 10:49:37 am »
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I guess Better Red then Dead forgets the fact that after war millions of South Vietnamese were sent to "re-education camps" in the North. These camps were little better than Nazi concentration camps or Soviet Gulags. Two million South Vietnamese were brutally murdered in purges in these camps in the late 1970's. As well as the mass exodus of South Vietnamese during the fall of the Republic in 1975. To say that South Vietnam was more corrupt is a farce in and of it's self.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2004, 12:53:49 pm by Justin »Logged
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2004, 12:41:09 pm »
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why? I haven't supported any wars since WWII.

You would have supported North Vietnam. You think that Che Guavara (a political thug) is a hero.
You are NOT a pacifist. You are degrading the word by saying that you are.

I believe that Ho Chi Minh should've been allowed to win the elections and not denied the presidency. Had this happened things would've far better for everyone in Vietnam, and most of the brutality that happened later would've not occured, nor would've the war's after effects spread to Cambodia, and perhaps the Khmer Rouge would've not have come to power. The Vietnam War simply made things worse for all of Indochina.

As for Guevara I don't know if it's different in the UK, but you'd have a tough time finding leftist kids without his T-shirts here. He is considered a hero throughout leftists in general. A poll at a Democrats only site I go to showed 90% voting for him as a hero. And I don't see why he'd be considered a thug, considering that Batista and the Bolivian government were also corrupt regimes.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2004, 12:41:40 pm by Better Red Than Dead »Logged

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2004, 01:31:42 pm »
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You are not even close to being a pacifist... unless the word means something else to you...
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2004, 01:33:33 pm »
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You are not even close to being a pacifist... unless the word means something else to you...

A pacifist means someone who refuses to take part in a war.
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2004, 02:00:34 pm »
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well I wouldn't take part in any US wars and would definately dodge the draft if it was still around.
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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2004, 03:49:26 pm »
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Opposing the US is different than opposing war.
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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2004, 04:36:10 pm »
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And I wouldn't have fought in any conflicts for other countries either.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2004, 04:36:44 pm by Better Red Than Dead »Logged

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« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2004, 08:54:39 pm »
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And I wouldn't have fought in any conflicts for other countries either.
So, you'd allow millions of people to be purged, murdered, starved or tortured, becuase you feel it's wrong to support a war to prevent such attrocities. I suggest you take a very good look at yourself and re-evaluate your beliefs in marxism. Your own Lenin instituted collectivization in the USSR which served nothing more than to starved millions of Soviet citizens, including the kulaks, ukranians, white russians, Don Cossaks, etc. Stalin liquidated somewhere around 16 million soviet citizens in purges, famines, and gulags in Siberia. During Mao's great leap forward, a couple million died due to the fact that most of the farmers were sent to factories to build up China's industry while crops rotted in the fields and no new crops were planted. When people began to voice thier objections, Mao instituted the Cultural Revolution and purged China of it's intellectuals, pro-democracy advocates, and generals. It is not known how many millions of people were liquidated as part of the Cultural Revolution, but the number was certainly high.

I don't think I need to speak about Pol Pot, or North Korea. Or How the Soviet Union crushed pro-democracy advocates in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 60's and 60's and then purged thier governments. I don't need to speak about 100,000 Polish officers murdered by the NKVD after Poland surrendered the USSR in 1939. I don't even need to speak about the fact that after WWII ended, Hundreds of Thousands of Soviet Soldier were sent to Gulags in Siberia, because Stalin thought that since they had a glimpse of the west they were prone to revolt.

To say that you would do nothing to alieviate the suffering of those who are oprressed is cowardism. I spit in your general direction.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2004, 09:40:04 pm by Justin »Logged
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« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2004, 09:33:14 pm »
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well I wouldn't take part in any US wars and would definately dodge the draft if it was still around.


You are required to file for the Selective Service. Do you plan on doing that?
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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2004, 01:25:49 am »
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I did file but only because you need to to get federal aid for college loans. no person has been prosecuted for not signing up in forever, but there's that little deal. but i would still dodge through whatever means. probably a moot point though because: 1-there's not going to be another draft and 2-I have a bad back problem that would probably get me a defferment anyway
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2004, 01:28:40 am »
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And I wouldn't have fought in any conflicts for other countries either.
So, you'd allow millions of people to be purged, murdered, starved or tortured, becuase you feel it's wrong to support a war to prevent such attrocities. I suggest you take a very good look at yourself and re-evaluate your beliefs in marxism. Your own Lenin instituted collectivization in the USSR which served nothing more than to starved millions of Soviet citizens, including the kulaks, ukranians, white russians, Don Cossaks, etc. Stalin liquidated somewhere around 16 million soviet citizens in purges, famines, and gulags in Siberia. During Mao's great leap forward, a couple million died due to the fact that most of the farmers were sent to factories to build up China's industry while crops rotted in the fields and no new crops were planted. When people began to voice thier objections, Mao instituted the Cultural Revolution and purged China of it's intellectuals, pro-democracy advocates, and generals. It is not known how many millions of people were liquidated as part of the Cultural Revolution, but the number was certainly high.

I don't think I need to speak about Pol Pot, or North Korea. Or How the Soviet Union crushed pro-democracy advocates in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 60's and 60's and then purged thier governments. I don't need to speak about 100,000 Polish officers murdered by the NKVD after Poland surrendered the USSR in 1939. I don't even need to speak about the fact that after WWII ended, Hundreds of Thousands of Soviet Soldier were sent to Gulags in Siberia, because Stalin thought that since they had a glimpse of the west they were prone to revolt.

To say that you would do nothing to alieviate the suffering of those who are oprressed is cowardism. I spit in your general direction.

I'm not a Stalinist or Maoist or any of that crap. Marx wasn't a dictator. If you think I favor any of the guys you're talking about then you have no clue what you're talking about.

I actually condmened the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot. I said if it wasn't for the Vietnam War they probably wouldn't of gotten the support to come to power.

Sorry that I think sending unwilling kids to die in a hellhole isn't acceptable.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2004, 01:32:38 am by Better Red Than Dead »Logged

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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2004, 02:08:32 am »
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Actually, the main reason the US got involved in Vietnam initially was to help prop up a French government.  Again, it's the damn French at the heart of the problem.

The French were soundly thrashed by the Vietcong. That's typical of old surrender France.
the french put up an epic fight at dien bien phu.

Yeah and they were bailed out by Ike.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2004, 04:15:09 am »
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BRTD... you are not a pacifist. You are not even close to being one.
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« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2004, 09:38:38 am »
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Ever since WW2 we have been bailing out or fighting in nations that had been colonies of European powers. Though I am all against communism and think it is THE most evil form of government, I think we should not have involved our selfs in Vietnam. The Gulf of Tonkin was worthy of a response but not sending thousands of "observers" in to do it. Vietnam being completely communist was no threat to any of our interests in the region. They are a third rate country at best. Harry Truman was a fool for not accepting the Chinese "hand" at the end of World War 2 if he had accepted their diplomacy I think this world would be a different place.
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Justin
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« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2004, 10:40:10 am »
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I'm not a Stalinist or Maoist or any of that crap. Marx wasn't a dictator. If you think I favor any of the guys you're talking about then you have no clue what you're talking about.

I actually condmened the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot. I said if it wasn't for the Vietnam War they probably wouldn't of gotten the support to come to power.

Sorry that I think sending unwilling kids to die in a hellhole isn't acceptable.
You certainly are a marxist and a Leninist. What Marx wanted to achieve differed little from what Lenin did in the Soviet Union. Or are you telling me that collectivisation and the elimination of rights and freedoms and the creation of the dictatorship of the proletariet are not marxist ideals? It's right there in the manifesto itself. Have you even read the manifesto? In his own doctorine, Marx calls for the elmination of all opposistion to the socialist party.

Khmer Rougue got support to come to power? By whom?

What is your definition of "unwilling" kids ? From facts that I read, plently of them were volunteers. The rest who were draftees still fought to keep the South from falling to the dictatorship of the North. Many of those draftees git purple hearts and gave thier lives to stop communism from spreading. To say that these kids were "unwilling" is an asnine statement.
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« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2004, 04:43:44 pm »
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if draftees aren't unwilling soldiers, what are they? What was Kerry then?

The Khmer Rouge got support to come to power through the expansion of the war into Cambodia.

and I agree with the concept of Marxism but not all ideals, and I certainly don't support human rights violations?
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« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2004, 04:45:43 pm »
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if draftees aren't unwilling soldiers, what are they? What was Kerry then?

The Khmer Rouge got support to come to power through the expansion of the war into Cambodia.

and I agree with the concept of Marxism but not all ideals, and I certainly don't support human rights violations?

You are aware that the philosophy of Marxism itself is a human rights violation?  Taking away people's property and telling them that they can't act in their own interest but only in the interest of the "collective" is a human rights violation.
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He isn't a total joke and a communist sympathizer. You'd be lucky to get 10% anywhere outside of DC. I don't even know that you could win DC. It would be awfully close in any event.
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« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2004, 05:14:53 pm »
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but nothing like Stalin or Mao. Besides rightwingers think higher taxes on the rich are a human rights violation. Like I should have any sympathy for rich people.
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« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2004, 05:41:08 pm »
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but nothing like Stalin or Mao. Besides rightwingers think higher taxes on the rich are a human rights violation. Like I should have any sympathy for rich people.
What about Lenin? Becuase of Lenin's institution of the collect farm millions of Soviet citizens were starved to death. This included the kulaks, Don Cossaks,Ukranians,Beylorussians, and poor Russians. Lenin before his death was also planning purges of the Intellectuals and Cpolitical rivals and military officers.
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« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2004, 08:37:29 pm »
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I don't agree with Lenin either. Someone such as Salvadore Allende is a good example of my ideology.
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