30 Hour Work Week

[minionofmidas]

That wasn't the trend here in the 80s and early 90s though. It's not just supposition, it's good solid second-hand experience.

[opebo]Silly worker, experience doesn't matter, nor does scientific data - I'm right and you're wrong no matter what, even if reality is clearly in conflict with my ideas.[/opebo]

Opebo's religion is never wrong, Lewis.

Oh, it certainly is the trend now.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Imposing anything like that over here would kill off what's left of the economy in certain already deprieved parts of several cities.

[opebo]

That wasn't the trend here in the 80s and early 90s though. It's not just supposition, it's good solid second-hand experience.

[opebo]Silly worker, experience doesn't matter, nor does scientific data - I'm right and you're wrong no matter what, even if reality is clearly in conflict with my ideas.[/opebo]

Opebo's religion is never wrong, Lewis.

Dibble, of course a particular interest group is going to have 'experience' and 'scientific data' which supports their agenda.  Such as the proposition that people who work less are more stressed, or that it is impossible to divide or otherwise alter jobs..

It is all just propaganda, surely you realize that, worker?

[John Dibble]

That wasn't the trend here in the 80s and early 90s though. It's not just supposition, it's good solid second-hand experience.

[opebo]Silly worker, experience doesn't matter, nor does scientific data - I'm right and you're wrong no matter what, even if reality is clearly in conflict with my ideas.[/opebo]

Opebo's religion is never wrong, Lewis.

Dibble, of course a particular interest group is going to have 'experience' and 'scientific data' which supports their agenda.  Such as the proposition that people who work less are more stressed, or that it is impossible to divide or otherwise alter jobs..

It is all just propaganda, surely you realize that, worker?

Yes, we know that you can't accept anything that contradicts your religion opebo - you religious fanatics are all the same in that regard. It's always propaganda unless it agrees with you, right? Of course it is! Now, if you wouldn't mind please keep your religion to yourself.

[opebo]

That wasn't the trend here in the 80s and early 90s though. It's not just supposition, it's good solid second-hand experience.

[opebo]Silly worker, experience doesn't matter, nor does scientific data - I'm right and you're wrong no matter what, even if reality is clearly in conflict with my ideas.[/opebo]

Opebo's religion is never wrong, Lewis.

Dibble, of course a particular interest group is going to have 'experience' and 'scientific data' which supports their agenda.  Such as the proposition that people who work less are more stressed, or that it is impossible to divide or otherwise alter jobs..

It is all just propaganda, surely you realize that, worker?

Yes, we know that you can't accept anything that contradicts your religion opebo - you religious fanatics are all the same in that regard. It's always propaganda unless it agrees with you, right? Of course it is! Now, if you wouldn't mind please keep your religion to yourself.

The 'religion' of skepticism?

You poor gullible.

[John Dibble]

The 'religion' of skepticism?

You poor gullible.

Skepticism? HAH! Like I said, anything that contradicts your ideas you reject out of hand - that's not skepticism, that's fanatacism. You don't ever question the ideas you hold, just like a good little religious fanatic.

[MODU]

I had a major Opebo today.  I was afraid it wouldn't flush. 

Opie . . . you need to realize . . . coming from us who actually work for a living, your concept of imposing limits on work hours, while somehow magically achieving just as much produtivity (not production, you moron) is not possible, hence the reason why many of us work over 40 hours a week.  Due to all of our economic and technological advances, one person can (in theory) do more work than two . . . which leads to us doing 40+ hours a week and burning through our vacation time like gas through a Hemi each year.  Now, if you want to reverse the trend of the 80s, split everyone's jobs (and salaries) in half, and double the size of the work force, then you might find a way to compress it down to 30 hours a week . . . until companies start laying off people again due to the high overhead rates.

[opebo]

The 'religion' of skepticism?

You poor gullible.

Skepticism? HAH! Like I said, anything that contradicts your ideas you reject out of hand - that's not skepticism, that's fanatacism. You don't ever question the ideas you hold, just like a good little religious fanatic.

No, Dibble, it is you who apply a religion-like belief in various absurdities, such as the market, and the belief that the current system is not controlled by the powerful (the rich).   I have no overarching 'objective' morality - I simply view politics as an attempt by various competing groups to gain power.

Opie . . . you need to realize . . . coming from us who actually work for a living,

Your unfortunate condition is irrelevant to the discussion, MODU, though I do sympathize with your miseries.  Please lay your complaints at the doorstep of your masters, not at your humble interlocutor.

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Again, it is you who prove your ignorance, and I will explain yet again - productivity is output per hour worked, and so, in general, laws which reduce work hours while mandating high pay will encourage improvements in productivity.

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No, the reason you work so much, poor man, is that you have no power, and your masters require it of you, in order that you may be suffered your little living. 

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I certainly wouldn't mind splitting everyone's jobs in half, but keep in mind that this is entirely unecessary, as technological improvements mean that one serf is now producing what several did at the time the 40 hour work week was instituted.  As for your high overhead, I'm sure you realize that capitalism will always seek the lowest wage, so your class is fairly doomed anyway - unless, of course, you utilize political power to fight back against your rulers.

[John Dibble]

The 'religion' of skepticism?

You poor gullible.

Skepticism? HAH! Like I said, anything that contradicts your ideas you reject out of hand - that's not skepticism, that's fanatacism. You don't ever question the ideas you hold, just like a good little religious fanatic.

No, Dibble, it is you who apply a religion-like belief in various absurdities, such as the market, and the belief that the current system is not controlled by the powerful (the rich).   I have no overarching 'objective' morality - I simply view politics as an attempt by various competing groups to gain power.

Yes opebo, we know how you, like a typical religious fanatic, claim those who disagree with you are misguided fools whose beliefs are absurd. Religious fanatics always believe any belief structure outside their own is absurd, not questioning their faith, just as you do not question your own beliefs in the least. Keep on repeating your religious rhetoric all you like.

[MODU]

Opie = joke

[opebo]

The 'religion' of skepticism?

You poor gullible.

Skepticism? HAH! Like I said, anything that contradicts your ideas you reject out of hand - that's not skepticism, that's fanatacism. You don't ever question the ideas you hold, just like a good little religious fanatic.

No, Dibble, it is you who apply a religion-like belief in various absurdities, such as the market, and the belief that the current system is not controlled by the powerful (the rich).   I have no overarching 'objective' morality - I simply view politics as an attempt by various competing groups to gain power.

Yes opebo, we know how you, like a typical religious fanatic, claim those who disagree with you are misguided fools whose beliefs are absurd. Religious fanatics always believe any belief structure outside their own is absurd, not questioning their faith, just as you do not question your own beliefs in the least. Keep on repeating your religious rhetoric all you like.

I have no 'belief structure', Dibble, I'm merely noting the obvious and apparent fact that all you workers work all day long all week for a pittance, and your masters live in idle luxury on the produce.  This isn't an ideological postion, it is just something I noticed from observing you all, and - well looking the hedges and gated drives of your masters (I admit it is impossible to observe them directly).

[John Dibble]

I have no 'belief structure', Dibble,

Of course you have a belief structure - what you espouse is consistent, and therefore structured, and you claim to believe it. Therefore you have a belief structure, and, like religious fanatics you never question your opinions and beliefs.

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That's not a fact opebo, that's an opinion. You view it as a pittance, but most of us don't - we think we're being paid amply for our time. A pittance is not a set amount, so therefore you can't assert that it is anything but your opinion. Also, we do not work all day and all week - most of us work in a range of 7-9 hours a day for five days a week.

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So, you admit that you're making stuff up? If you don't see our situations, how can you be absolutely sure that your assessment of them is correct? I'll tell you how - like a religious fanatic, you don't question the things you make up. We constantly tell you that our lives aren't nearly as bad as you describe them to be(in fact many of us tell you we quite enjoy our lives), but you refuse to believe us. How are you different than a religious fanatic in this respect? Like them, you refuse to accept anything that contradicts what you believe to be true, even if the whole world tells you it's false, because it would require you to actually think! Better to live in ignorance than actually have to think, eh fanatic?

[opebo]

I have no 'belief structure', Dibble,

I'm merely noting the obvious and apparent fact that all you workers work all day long all week for a pittance, and your masters live in idle luxury on the produce.

That's not a fact opebo, that's an opinion. You view it as a pittance, but most of us don't - we think we're being paid amply for our time. A pittance is not a set amount, so therefore you can't assert that it is anything but your opinion.[/quote]

It is a relative amount - the point was that you receive nearly nothing compared to those who rule you (the owners).

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Yes, that is horrific.

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No, I actually saw poor people working, and I saw the outsides of the mansions, compounds, etc. of the rich.  I may have even seen a rich once at an airport or getting into a limousine.

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I never said I didn't see you poors - you are all quite exposed to public view.  If you read carefully you will see that I state that I was not allowed to minutely view the rich.

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I believe it is you, Dibble, who are making up statements out of my posts!  But to give you the benefit of the doubt I'll just say you misunderstood.

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My points have nothing to do with whether you think your lives are bad or not, or whether you enjoy them.  For all I know slaves may have had a ball.  My points are made based on the social heirarchy, and the use of power that maintains and orders is - and keeps you in your places, licking boots (sorry to use that term, but if you are happy at the bottom, I think it is appropriate).

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I believe you, but your subjective tastes (apparentely masochism) do not interest me.

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Because I make no value judgements, Dibble.

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Again, it is not that I don't 'accept' your statements, it is just that they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[John Dibble]

Blah blah blah. You have yet to show that you actually put any thought into anything - like a religious fanatic you never question your beliefs and denounce anything that disagrees with you as wrong. You have yet to disprove that. Of course you won't even try - you're so convinced that what you think is correct, just like a fanatic, that you don't feel the need. The typical arrogance of the fanatic.

[opebo]

Blah blah blah. You have yet to show that you actually put any thought into anything - like a religious fanatic you never question your beliefs and denounce anything that disagrees with you as wrong. You have yet to disprove that. Of course you won't even try - you're so convinced that what you think is correct, just like a fanatic, that you don't feel the need. The typical arrogance of the fanatic.

Well, I'm afraid it is more the arrogance of a realist talking to a fanatic, Dibble.   One cannot help but be a bit patronizing to the unreasonable.

Just look at the reality of the situation around you, without thinking about ideology, markets, and all that propaganda.  Look at individual persons, their class, and their position in the social heirarchy.  That is quite honestly what made me throw out my previous economic views - I noticed that the heirarchy is there - most people serve the few - regardless of all the excuses.

[John Dibble]

Blah blah blah. You have yet to show that you actually put any thought into anything - like a religious fanatic you never question your beliefs and denounce anything that disagrees with you as wrong. You have yet to disprove that. Of course you won't even try - you're so convinced that what you think is correct, just like a fanatic, that you don't feel the need. The typical arrogance of the fanatic.

Well, I'm afraid it is more the arrogance of a realist talking to a fanatic, Dibble.   One cannot help but be a bit patronizing to the unreasonable.

Just look at the reality of the situation around you, without thinking about ideology, markets, and all that propaganda.  Look at individual persons, their class, and their position in the social heirarchy.  That is quite honestly what made me throw out my previous economic views - I noticed that the heirarchy is there - most people serve the few - regardless of all the excuses.

Yes yes fanatic, you converted to a new school of thought and have developed rhetoric for it. You repeat your rhetoric well, never questioning it, refusing anything that contradicts it. We've been over this. You are arrogant, you are unquestioning in your beliefs, and you are fanatical, much like the uber-religious you so despise. Your behavior and arrogance only indicates fanaticism, and you've yet to show otherwise, but you won't accept it because fanatics never accept that they are fanatics.

[opebo]

Blah blah blah. You have yet to show that you actually put any thought into anything - like a religious fanatic you never question your beliefs and denounce anything that disagrees with you as wrong. You have yet to disprove that. Of course you won't even try - you're so convinced that what you think is correct, just like a fanatic, that you don't feel the need. The typical arrogance of the fanatic.

Well, I'm afraid it is more the arrogance of a realist talking to a fanatic, Dibble.   One cannot help but be a bit patronizing to the unreasonable.

Just look at the reality of the situation around you, without thinking about ideology, markets, and all that propaganda.  Look at individual persons, their class, and their position in the social heirarchy.  That is quite honestly what made me throw out my previous economic views - I noticed that the heirarchy is there - most people serve the few - regardless of all the excuses.

Yes yes fanatic, you converted to a new school of thought and have developed rhetoric for it. You repeat your rhetoric well, never questioning it, refusing anything that contradicts it. We've been over this. You are arrogant, you are unquestioning in your beliefs, and you are fanatical, much like the uber-religious you so despise. Your behavior and arrogance only indicates fanaticism, and you've yet to show otherwise, but you won't accept it because fanatics never accept that they are fanatics.

How am I a 'fanatic', Dibble?  I don't even propose that the heirarchy be upended, just emeliorated slightly.  Do you at least admit that it exists?

[John Dibble]

How am I a 'fanatic', Dibble?  I don't even propose that the heirarchy be upended, just emeliorated slightly.  Do you at least admit that it exists?

As usual you don't listen - must I repeat myself? You are a fanatic in the sense that you don't question what you believe at all, and when presented with evidence or testimony that even slightly contradicts those beliefs you reject it out of hand a propoganda or just plain wrong. This is not unlike a creationist rejecting evidence for evolution simply because it contradicts creationism.

As for the social hierarchy, no I do not deny one exists - what I deny is that it is simply divided into 'poor' and 'owner', that one is definitely stuck in one's class for the rest of their life, that one has no control over ones own behavior(determined by class, as you say), ect. Basically you greatly exaggerate the problems and make it so nobody has any personal responsibility for anything.

[MODU]

How am I a 'fanatic', Dibble?  I don't even propose that the heirarchy be upended, just emeliorated slightly.  Do you at least admit that it exists?

"you poors."  "your masters." etc...  You're a joke on this issue son. 

[opebo]

You are a fanatic in the sense that you don't question what you believe at all, and when presented with evidence or testimony that even slightly contradicts those beliefs you reject it out of hand a propoganda or just plain wrong. This is not unlike a creationist rejecting evidence for evolution simply because it contradicts creationism.

Not at all, Dibble.  No one has ever presented any 'evidence' in any of our arguments, and in any case your imprisonment in your laughable libertarian 'world view' is complete.

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No, I consider power a prerequisite for responsibility.  Therefore the upper most class, having nearly all of the power, also has nearly all of the responsibility.

How am I a 'fanatic', Dibble?  I don't even propose that the heirarchy be upended, just emeliorated slightly.  Do you at least admit that it exists?

"you poors."  "your masters." etc...  You're a joke on this issue son. 

Alas, MODU, if only it were so.  No, the situation is just as I describe - you have masters.  Now, get back to work.

[John Dibble]

You are a fanatic in the sense that you don't question what you believe at all, and when presented with evidence or testimony that even slightly contradicts those beliefs you reject it out of hand a propoganda or just plain wrong. This is not unlike a creationist rejecting evidence for evolution simply because it contradicts creationism.

Not at all, Dibble.  No one has ever presented any 'evidence' in any of our arguments, and in any case your imprisonment in your laughable libertarian 'world view' is complete.

See, you prove my point - we have presented evidence to you, but like a good fanatic you ignored it.

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So a man who murders another man has no personal responsibility if he's poor?

[MODU]

A personal message to Opie from Mr. T:

"You're a fool - that's what's wrong with you."



Don't forget to check out Mr. T's new show starting in October!!! 

[opebo]

Yes, watch your TV shows when you're allowed some time off work, worker.

[Inverted Things]

I meant to say college-educated service employees. The types of people who work 40 hours per week while sitting at a desk. Obviously restaurant employees and retail clerks aren't paid much--a trained monkey could do those jobs.

No, fool, they are persons and citizens, not monkeys.  And keep in mind that your interests lie with them, worker, and not with the aristocracy.

It really is laughable what hubris a shoddy thing like a college degree gives to you desperate, deluded social climbers.  Face it, you are a serf, and you will always be a serf, Sheep.

You really ought to consider the possibility that I know more about these sorts of things than you do. When was the last time you had a service job? My last two jobs were auditing mortgage documents and serving coffee.

Regarding "hubris..." I've always been an arrogant little er; it has nothing to do with a college degree. Furthermore, I graduated from college in May 2004, and spent a year looking for work befitting my qualifications. I didn't find such a job, and therefore went to graduate school instead.

And the serf thing... maybe I am a serf, but I'm rather happy with my situation right now. I have a fantastic job waiting for me in September which will pay me about $30,000 next year while only requiring me to work less than 20 hours per week.

[angus]

Discuss the idea of moving to a 30 hour work week for 40 hours of pay.

I don't mind my 30 hour work week much.  Though it can be stressful.  Glad the semester's almost over.  But if they wanted to pay me for a 40 hour week I wouldn't mind.  But I'm not holding my breath.  I figure no one twisted my arm and forced me to take a 30 hour a week/32 weeks per year job.  I could have taken a 50+ hour a week/46+ weeks a year job, as some of my colleagues have done.  They make lots more money than I do.  To them, the extra money is worth more than the leisure time.  I respect them.  They respect me.  We all make our own choices.  If someone values the high-pressure results-oriented values of the private sector, along with their high payscales, then by all means let them take that job.  After all, such corporate research positions are important and necessary. 

In any case, the decisions about how many hours per week, or weeks per year, to work are a private matter to be resolved between employee and employer.  I certainly don't think the government should involve itself in such private matters.  People come from all over the world to study/work here.  Some legally, some illegally.  And there's a reason they do.  It's the freedom of choice and the mobility we enjoy. 

I hope all of you have a wonderful summer.  Peace and Love.