Do you support Race base AA

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Diversity itself is a reason to support race-based AA.

If a university's admission policies will result in virtually none of several minority groups being admitted, than the entire student body will suffer from not being exposed to opinions and backgrounds different from their own.  Part of the college experience is not only learning in class, but learning from your fellow students, and this is best done when the other students have something to teach you.  Excluding minorities from this environment hurts the white students as well.

If an appropiate number of minority students will be admitted without the use of AA, then it is obviously unnecessary.  I don't think there should be strict quotas, but a sort of "critical mass."

Also, I'm less inclined to support race-based AA in jobs where a specific skill set is need to competently perform.  These comments really only apply to education.

[angus]

And after Angus spake the liberals did grow ashamed. And Shelia Jackson Lee did turn to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and she did speak thusly, "What ill hath we wrought? Surely we must needs rectify this, acoording to the words of angus." And Ruth Bader Ginsburg did reply thusly, "Whatsoever could have prompted these misdeeds? Yea, verily we must needs set this aright". And so it was that it did end, today.

I agree with you completely, its a nasty, nasty system. In the end it screws the blacks and Latin Americans over much more completely than the whites and Asians, though, because every time someone sees a "disadvantaged minority" in a position of authority, they wonder "did they get their through their own sweat and talent, or were they given it because of melanin levels?" In this way it actually encourages continued discrimination.

okay, I was in a prosyletizing mood yesterday.  I'll try to watch my language in the future.  But the sentiment was real, and I'm happy to learn that at least the majority of posters on this excellent forum have given this serious issue some real thought.

We have race problems in this society, no doubt.  And blacks and sometimes females are underrepresented in white-collar fields such as science, medicine, engineering, and law.  But two wrongs don't make it right.  That was my only point.

[Nym90]

Agreed, NickG, but there are many other factors to consider besides just race when it comes to diversity.

It's a shame that colleges can't have a face-to-face interview with each and every applicant...I feel that's the only way to truly get a good grasp of someone's character, and of what they'll bring to the organization. People can't be judged fairly by anything other than honest in-person interaction.

[angus]

I'm reminded that the passage of proposition 209 in California technically put an end to legalized bigotry (aka affirmative action) in this state about five years ago.  When 209 was passed all the authoritarian/liberal types complained that, "Now, on campus you'll no longer have diversity.  Without raced-based admissions you'll end up with 19 thousand asians and one thousand white jews."  I forget who said that, but I remember reading it in the papers.  Well, has that happened?  I don't think so.  At UCB there are 20 thousand students of all stripes and colors and they got in based on their grades, test scores, and letters of recommendation.  This is as it should be.  If meritocracy works for California, it can work for the United States.  Or, as the President said, "We need to end the soft bigotry of low expectations."

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Agreed, NickG, but there are many other factors to consider besides just race when it comes to diversity.

It's a shame that colleges can't have a face-to-face interview with each and every applicant...I feel that's the only way to truly get a good grasp of someone's character, and of what they'll bring to the organization. People can't be judged fairly by anything other than honest in-person interaction.

Of course, and we should have class-based affirmative action as well.  In fact, I would support exclusively class-based AA if it was guaranteed to achieve a "critical mass" of diversity on other axes, like race.  But I'm not convinced that it is.

[classical liberal]

Are you doing a RightWingNut and just taking a bizarre position for the heck of it?

What position have I taken that you think was "for the heck of it"?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Do you remember your posting in Kerry and Gay Marriage?

Also, do you remember how you initial insisted on fusion energy as the answer to the gas price problem?

[classical liberal]

I don't know what you're refering to on the gay marriage thing.

You misunderstood what I was saying on the energy thing.  I was merely commenting on the fact that given the renewable nature of nulcear fusion, a forward thinking energy policy would contain R&D incentives for it.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I don't know what you're refering to on the gay marriage thing.

You misunderstood what I was saying on the energy thing.  I was merely commenting on the fact that given the renewable nature of nulcear fusion, a forward thinking energy policy would contain R&D incentives for it.

Check your post on 4/18/04 (2:32pm), Kerry and Gay Marriage.

[classical liberal]

I'm serious.  I know that at least in the South and the Interior West, there would be very few qualms about lynching a f****t.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I'm serious.  I know that at least in the South and the Interior West, there would be very few qualms about lynching a f****t.

Again you run to hyperbole.

While there is a smaller percentage of homosexuals in the regions you have cited than in say, San Francisco, New York or Boston, and while the political and social climate isn't perhaps as favorable to them, lynching is passe.

[classical liberal]

yes, i suppose that nowadays dragging a dead body with a car is preferable to lynching

[CARLHAYDEN]

Again with the exaggerations.

Get real.

If a homosexual were killed because of his/her sexual orientation the liberal news media would be all over like flies on $#!^.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

IIRC some poor bastard got Crucified in Wyoming a while back.

[CARLHAYDEN]

That was one incident four years ago.

Note, in that same year, subteen boys were tortured to death by homosexuals in Massachusetts and Tennessee.

Neither incident received national (liberal) media coverage or an MTV movie.

Hmm.

[Brambila]

For Christ's sake, it's not "African-American", it's BLACK. Just say BLACK.- $0.01

Race was created by racists. -$0.01

My two cents.

[migrendel]

I didn't hear of those incidents. What happened?

[CARLHAYDEN]

In both incidents, a sub-teen boy was tortured to death by a pair of homosexuals.

[Nym90]

Well, since blacks tend to have lower average incomes than whites, class-based AA would still disproportionately benefit blacks. So I would think you wouldn't have any problem reaching the "critical mass".

[migrendel]

You're probably right, Nym. But the principle of discarding remedial measures based upon race troubles me.