McGovern to endorse Clark!

[Gustaf]

McGovern will endorse Clark and campaign with him, according to the hedgehog report, that site by David Wissing, which is great, btw, thanks to whoever it was who pointed that out.

Will that help Clark, or will it be negative?

[Gustaf]

I really don't think it will make a difference. Does McGovern even have a following?

I don't know. It might give the impression that Clark is the new McGovern...

[Gustaf]

This is fantastic!  Now there are two McGoverns running for the democratic nomination.  That just doubled our chances of winning a landslide!

I don't think Clark will get nominated, he is not in Iowa, he will not do good in NH, and then there is nothing left. It's all decided in IA and NH, and with no breakthrough there of any kind you don't win. Clark is toast.

[Gustaf]

The only way that Clark (or Dean, or anyone) will be another McGovern is if Bush does to the Dem nominee what Nixon did to McGovern. If Bush pulls a Watergate, sure he can win by 20 points.

People always forget that about 1972. Sure McGovern was made out to be a far leftist, but it didn't hurt that Nixon stole his campaign plans and bugged the DNC!

Nixon would have won even if Nixon didn't cheat.

Yep, that's what makes Watergate so weird. It was completely unneccesary!

[Gustaf]

Nixon had a big ego, he couldn't handle the thought of a second presidential defeat.  So he cheated.

The man wsa a lunatic, as far as I understand.

[Gustaf]

He wasn't all that bad of a president however.  I mean, he wasn't good, but there are worse.

He did some good things, and some bad things. Overall, I think he was pretty bad, but I agree that there have been worse.

[Gustaf]

Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.

No, not a joke.  Its true the situation was not ideal, but Kissinger saved that country from socialism.

That is disgusting. The fascist military overthrow a democratic government. People were murdered brutally. Calling that a "cool project" is very disrespectful. I have a friend who's father had to flee from Chile in order to survive. You're turning into PD.

[Gustaf]

Kissinger managed some cool projects like Pinochet in Chile

This is a joke, right? Pinochet was a brutal dictator who killed thousands of people.

No, not a joke.  Its true the situation was not ideal, but Kissinger saved that country from socialism.

... by getting lots of people killed. Besides, are you seriously suggesting the Nixon Administration was justified to replace a Socialist regime with an even WORSE one? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Btw, well said Gustaf.

Thanks!

[Gustaf]

Salvador Allende Gossens was a better choice for Chile. He was elected, he guarded copper from foreign abuse, and that curried disfavor with the right-wing at home and in Washington. If what Reagan and Thatcher did at home wasn't enough to cast an aspersion on human dignity, their actions in Nicaraugua and Chile were clearly an example of the winds of evil that swept through Washington and London.

I wouldn't say that. I believe Allende was a lousy president, and I am not even convinced that they would have been better off with him. But that's not the point. Democratic principles and human rights are.

[Gustaf]

If "saving" a country from "socialism" is an excuse for setting a coup d'etat that leads to a fascist dictatorship how come the same was never done to Sweden?

Thinking about that, opebo, do you think that the murder of Olof Palme was justified?

This will be an interesting answer...Sweden was a western country, though, and we weren't THAT socialist. But it's still a good point. Where do one stop? France would probably be a much better example, they left NATO, courted the SOviets, and tried to nationalize the banks.

[Gustaf]

If "saving" a country from "socialism" is an excuse for setting a coup d'etat that leads to a fascist dictatorship how come the same was never done to Sweden?

Thinking about that, opebo, do you think that the murder of Olof Palme was justified?

This will be an interesting answer...Sweden was a western country, though, and we weren't THAT socialist. But it's still a good point. Where do one stop? France would probably be a much better example, they left NATO, courted the SOviets, and tried to nationalize the banks.

Gustaf, Realpolitik,

US intervention, as in Chile, should be primarily to benefit US interests, not merely to oppose socialism in principle (though it is in principle an evil, imo).  But as far as within the country itself I don't see how you can blame the Right - and more to the point property owners - from trying to defend themselves against 'democratic' expropriation by whatever means necessary.  In this extremity one is lucky to have a Pinochet to turn to.  The thought that the majority of the 'people' voted to rob you of your property is no comfort at all - you will still fight for it if you can, including by a forcible coup, removing the socialist regime if possible.

I don't think you have the right to invade soverign states to benefit your national interest. That is not a conduct worthy of a democratic country.

If you view fascist murderers as part of the right, then that's your business. I am a right-winger in my own country, and I would punch someone who tried to associate me with Pinochet. I am not saying Allende-s policies were right, I don't think they were, but that was no excuse for murdering left-wingers and imposing a brutal dicatature.