Israel & Lebanon war-ish

[dazzleman]

OK, a few things that need to be clarified.

1-Ahmadinejad was not the mullah-supported candidate (that was actually his runoff opponent, a pragmatist) and was initially considered a long shot dark horse. The guy was hardly considered a factor a few months before the election.

2-There is absolutely no evidence suggesting that Ahmadinejad did not fairly win the run off election under the circumstances that took (as Lewis has proven before). That's not to say the election was what could truly be considered "fair", but there is no question that the majority of people who came to vote that day did vote for Ahmadinejad. The reason Iran is not a democracy is not rigged elections a la Iraq under Sadddam or Zimbabwe, it's that the elected government doesn't have any real power. As for why Ahmadinejad won, it was mostly his promise of economic reforms, the fact that the reformist movement largely stayed home with their real candidate defeated in the first round, and being annoyed at Iraq (no invading Iraq = no Ahmadinejad, it's that simple)

3-And for that reason, Ahmadinejad is hardly a threat. He's basically just a loon who makes stupid comments to get him face time in the news. Note that the former PM of Malaysia made similar comments all the time (he claimed that the HIV virus was genetically engineered by Israel and in his farewell address claimed the entire world was secretely ruled by Jews) and yet he was never considered a threat, and he actually DID run his country.

4-Everyone should read the new Reader's Digest which has an article by a former National Security Council member explaining why military force will not work against Iran (and Iraq is basically the weakest link, proving once again to be a pointless liability), and the only way to rein them in is a carrot and stick approach that the US and EU are starting now (basically promising to help Iran stabalize and reform its economy in exchange for a drop of support for terrorism and end to nuclear production)

Is Malaysia working on nuclear weapons?

What 'sticks' do you suggest using against Iran along with the carrots?  We've seen how well that has worked with North Korea.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

"Lebanon is truly free and independent and democratic ... There's no question in my mind that Lebanon can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East." - George W. Bush April 18, 2006

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060418-2.html

[J. J.]

"Lebanon is truly free and independent and democratic ... There's no question in my mind that Lebanon can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East." - George W. Bush April 18, 2006

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060418-2.html

There is no question that they are.  There is, however, an armed gang, much like like a street gang in the US, that needs to be disarmed.  The government of Lebanon is free, but not all powerful.  Israel will help Lebanon, in the long run by disarming Hezbollah.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

"Lebanon is truly free and independent and democratic ... There's no question in my mind that Lebanon can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East." - George W. Bush April 18, 2006

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060418-2.html

There is no question that they are.  There is, however, an armed gang, much like like a street gang in the US, that needs to be disarmed.  The government of Lebanon is free, but not all powerful.  Israel will help Lebanon, in the long run by disarming Hezbollah.

What sort of freedoms are these? The freedom to get killed by Isreal?

[J. J.]

"Lebanon is truly free and independent and democratic ... There's no question in my mind that Lebanon can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East." - George W. Bush April 18, 2006

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060418-2.html

There is no question that they are.  There is, however, an armed gang, much like like a street gang in the US, that needs to be disarmed.  The government of Lebanon is free, but not all powerful.  Israel will help Lebanon, in the long run by disarming Hezbollah.

What sort of freedoms are these? The freedom to get killed by Isreal?

You could effectively make the same argument in parts of South Central.  Ultimately, the Lebanese government is going to have to disarm Hezbollah or Israel will do it for them.

[J. J.]

The G-8 just called on Hezbollah to release the Israeli soldiers and stop the attacks on Israel first. and then it will call on Israel to stop the attacks.

Can anybody say Hez-Kabob?

[??????????]

I support Israel defending itself by destroying specific military targets (HQs, rocket batteries, and camps). I do not support them leveling civilian infrastructure such as roads, bridges or airports and these actions are counterproductive and don't help to solve any problems.

[Lunar]

"Lebanon is truly free and independent and democratic ... There's no question in my mind that Lebanon can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East." - George W. Bush April 18, 2006

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060418-2.html

There is no question that they are.  There is, however, an armed gang, much like like a street gang in the US, that needs to be disarmed.  The government of Lebanon is free, but not all powerful.  Israel will help Lebanon, in the long run by disarming Hezbollah.

They're destroying bridges and killing 50:1 civilians to militants with the latest numbers.  Lebanon is begging the world to stop Israel.  Israel could be argued to be doing many things, but helping Lebanon they are not.

[jerusalemcar5]

I support Israel defending itself by destroying specific military targets (HQs, rocket batteries, and camps). I do not support them leveling civilian infrastructure such as roads, bridges or airports and these actions are counterproductive and don't help to solve any problems.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[J. J.]

I support Israel defending itself by destroying specific military targets (HQs, rocket batteries, and camps). I do not support them leveling civilian infrastructure such as roads, bridges or airports and these actions are counterproductive and don't help to solve any problems.

Those roads, bridges and airports are being used to bring supplies to those military targets.

That said, I would strongly support Israel taking steps to rebuild them, once Hezbollah disarms.  Give the soldiers back, disarm, and the attacks stop and the start rebuilding.

Since 2000, Israel lived with Hezbollah right next door, and did not attack it.  They would still be doing so if Hezbollah had not attacked.  Disarm or die.  Rebuild afterward.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If Israel had consulted with Lebanon to do a joint offensive against Hezbollah, it would be much more efficient, and the blocking of supply routes could be done by the Lebanese army, there'd be no need for this mass and disproportionate destruction. The vast majority of things destroyed and people killed so far had nothing to do with Hezbollah. Israel is doing the equivalent of trying to destroy a cockroach nest by burning the entire house down.

[J. J.]

If Israel had consulted with Lebanon to do a joint offensive against Hezbollah, it would be much more efficient, and the blocking of supply routes could be done by the Lebanese army, there'd be no need for this mass and disproportionate destruction. The vast majority of things destroyed and people killed so far had nothing to do with Hezbollah. Israel is doing the equivalent of trying to destroy a cockroach nest by burning the entire house down.

Except, in this case, it's the abandoned house next door.  If Lebanon would assert control over the region, there would be no attacks.  I'm in favor of telling Lebanon to join in the bug hunt, but no one can force the Lebanese to join it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Lebanese PM the whole time has been offering Israel a cease-fire and disarming Hezbollah, and Israel is rejecting every offer of his.

[NewFederalist]

The Lebanese PM the whole time has been offering Israel a cease-fire and disarming Hezbollah, and Israel is rejecting every offer of his.

I have not heard that on the news but I seriously doubt the Lebanese could disarm Hezbollah. I am unaware that the Lebanese army has any real power at all. If I am mistaken and the Lebanese COULD disarm the terrorists and have made such an offer, I would agree Israel is very wrong to not accept it.

[dazzleman]

The Lebanese PM the whole time has been offering Israel a cease-fire and disarming Hezbollah, and Israel is rejecting every offer of his.

Do you have a link to back up that assertion?  That would be an interesting and very positive development, if Lebanon were willing and able to prevent Hezbollah from operating on their territory.  Please post the link, because I have not heard this.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1644123

Or if you refuse to read anything on DU see this: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1150886009191&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The officials noted positively that Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora had said Saturday at a press conference that his government would reassert government authority over all Lebanese territory - an allusion to the possibility of deploying the Lebanese army in south Lebanon, which is effectively controlled by Hizbullah.

Senior sources in the Prime Minister's Office said that dislodging Hizbullah from southern Lebanon and getting the government in Beirut to assert its authority over the area as called for by UN Security Council Resolution 1559 were among the primary goals of the IDF's current campaign.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Is Malaysia working on nuclear weapons?

No, but Ahmadinjead has just as much control over any nuclear program as he did.

What 'sticks' do you suggest using against Iran along with the carrots?  We've seen how well that has worked with North Korea.

Different situation. North Korea is basically a giant concentration camp that doesn't care about the outside world and can't really be dipolmatically or economically isolated anymore than it already is. Iran to some extent actually does want to be integrated into the global community.

Here's the article that basically summarizes everything: http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=28221

[NewFederalist]

I read the article and I still have my doubts the Lebanese army can rein in Hezbollah. I guess I would have to ask why would the Lebanese government have to "re-assert" it authority over its own territory. It obviously lost such control to Hezbollah. I am all for the UN helping Lebanon to control its own territory but I still don't believe they can do it alone.

[Jake]

[snip]

Frankly, I'll believe Lebanon is capable of disarming Hizballuh when I see it.

[dazzleman]

I read the article and I still have my doubts the Lebanese army can rein in Hezbollah. I guess I would have to ask why would the Lebanese government have to "re-assert" it authority over its own territory. It obviously lost such control to Hezbollah. I am all for the UN helping Lebanon to control its own territory but I still don't believe they can do it alone.

^^^^^^

The article says that Israel wants Lebanon to reassert its authority in the south against Hezbollah, indeed that that is one major goal of this campaign.  So where do you get that Lebanon offered to do this and Israel refused?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Israel is refusing the Lebanese cease-fire offers. I think a country could assert control over its territory better when it's not having its infrastructure bombed to hell. If Israel wants Lebanon to take over its south, then why not work with them instead of blockading them and bombing their airports?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Israel is refusing the Lebanese cease-fire offers. I think a country could assert control over its territory better when it's not having its infrastructure bombed to hell. If Israel wants Lebanon to take over its south, then why not work with them instead of blockading them and bombing their airports?

Israel has a right to defend itself from Canadian civilians.

[J. J.]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1644123

Or if you refuse to read anything on DU see this: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1150886009191&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The officials noted positively that Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora had said Saturday at a press conference that his government would reassert government authority over all Lebanese territory - an allusion to the possibility of deploying the Lebanese army in south Lebanon, which is effectively controlled by Hizbullah.

Senior sources in the Prime Minister's Office said that dislodging Hizbullah from southern Lebanon and getting the government in Beirut to assert its authority over the area as called for by UN Security Council Resolution 1559 were among the primary goals of the IDF's current campaign.

"Alluding" to it isn't doing it.  Come on, let him do it. 

[J. J.]

Israel is refusing the Lebanese cease-fire offers. I think a country could assert control over its territory better when it's not having its infrastructure bombed to hell. If Israel wants Lebanon to take over its south, then why not work with them instead of blockading them and bombing their airports?

The cease fire offers, from Lebanon would be impressive, if Lebanon was shooting at any one.

Israel is not preventing one Lebanese soldier from moving to disarm (or suppress) Hezbollah.

[Lunar]

Israel is refusing the Lebanese cease-fire offers. I think a country could assert control over its territory better when it's not having its infrastructure bombed to hell. If Israel wants Lebanon to take over its south, then why not work with them instead of blockading them and bombing their airports?

The cease fire offers, from Lebanon would be impressive, if Lebanon was shooting at any one.

Israel is not preventing one Lebanese soldier from moving to disarm (or suppress) Hezbollah.

Israel has killed more Lebanese soldiers than Hezbollah members at the latest numbers (3:2), so technically killing them might stop them

With 8 Canadians just killed, this makes Israel responsible for the killings of innocents from the following countries: