Israel & Lebanon war-ish

[Lunar]

Ok, I'm generally an Israel-supporter or, at worst, a neutral party in the whole Palestine-Israel thing.  I think Israel is always forced to choose the lesser of two crappy situations and lacks and solution out of most of this media and military quagmires.

HOWEVER, Israel nees to realize that three fourths of its battle lies in public relations, both in the Arab world and in the West.  Just invading a sovereign country, killing mostly civilians, and blowing stuff up, is ridiculous and Israel is starting to realize this.  It seems like they got involved in a game of chicken and didn't know when to back down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis

Casualties

Israeli: Eight Israeli soldiers were killed, two captured and five more wounded.[3] Four civilians have been killed, and 120 civilians were wounded.[2] A gunboat was fired upon and heavily damaged, Israeli newspaper Haaretz confirm 4 IDF Sailors missing.

Lebanese: One Hezbollah member has been killed as well as two soldiers in the Lebanese army.[69] Lebanese security officials have so far reported that 63 Lebanese civilians have been killed and another 167 had been wounded by July 14.[70]

Foreign nationals: The Kuwaiti Foreign Ministry has reported that two Kuwaiti nationals have been killed.[71] Also, a complete family of four Brazilians, including two children, was killed in the Israeli bombings in Srifa,[72] drawing condemnation from foreign relations minister Celso Amorim.[73] Four members of a German-Lebanese family from Moenchengladbach were killed in an Israeli air raid in Chehour in southern Lebanon. An Argentinian woman died in Nahariya

[Lunar]

I'd love to see Hezbollah and Hamas destroyed.  The more of those people the Israelis kill, the better.

Well, so far, they're at 1.

[Lunar]

It's back one page yo.

Casualties

Israeli: Eight Israeli soldiers were killed, two captured and five more wounded.[3] Four civilians have been killed, and 120 civilians were wounded.[2] A gunboat was fired upon and heavily damaged, Israeli newspaper Haaretz confirm 4 IDF Sailors missing.

Lebanese: One Hezbollah member has been killed as well as two soldiers in the Lebanese army.[69] Lebanese security officials have so far reported that 63 Lebanese civilians have been killed and another 167 had been wounded by July 14.[70]

Foreign nationals: The Kuwaiti Foreign Ministry has reported that two Kuwaiti nationals have been killed.[71] Also, a complete family of four Brazilians, including two children, was killed in the Israeli bombings in Srifa,[72] drawing condemnation from foreign relations minister Celso Amorim.[73] Four members of a German-Lebanese family from Moenchengladbach were killed in an Israeli air raid in Chehour in southern Lebanon. An Argentinian woman died in Nahariya

[Lunar]

"Lebanon is truly free and independent and democratic ... There's no question in my mind that Lebanon can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East." - George W. Bush April 18, 2006

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060418-2.html

There is no question that they are.  There is, however, an armed gang, much like like a street gang in the US, that needs to be disarmed.  The government of Lebanon is free, but not all powerful.  Israel will help Lebanon, in the long run by disarming Hezbollah.

They're destroying bridges and killing 50:1 civilians to militants with the latest numbers.  Lebanon is begging the world to stop Israel.  Israel could be argued to be doing many things, but helping Lebanon they are not.

[Lunar]

Israel is refusing the Lebanese cease-fire offers. I think a country could assert control over its territory better when it's not having its infrastructure bombed to hell. If Israel wants Lebanon to take over its south, then why not work with them instead of blockading them and bombing their airports?

The cease fire offers, from Lebanon would be impressive, if Lebanon was shooting at any one.

Israel is not preventing one Lebanese soldier from moving to disarm (or suppress) Hezbollah.

Israel has killed more Lebanese soldiers than Hezbollah members at the latest numbers (3:2), so technically killing them might stop them

With 8 Canadians just killed, this makes Israel responsible for the killings of innocents from the following countries:

[Lunar]

Question: are we all certain that the reports of 'civilian deaths caused by Israel' are accurate? There's been a lot of unconditional acceptance of every assertion made against the Israelis in this thread so far...

My numbers came from a wikipedia article that seems to vary basing its numbers on media reports and government reports.  The high numbers of civilians are of course provided the Lebanese government.  Really, I'm just using the likely skewed numbers to make fun of Israel for seemingly failing to maintain a better military:civilian ratio than Hezbollah, which is firing missiles randomly into population centers.

Still, judging from the amount of foreign casualities and the direct accounts in media reports, there does seem to be a fairly high amount of civilian casualities.  It's just haphazard extrapolation from the amount of Candians, Brazilians, and publiciced women & children, but I do believe that Israel is goofing up to some degree.

[Lunar]

Remember those Canadians that Israel killed? It turns out that four of them were children:

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Way to go after those evildoers, Israel! *thumbs up*

Actually, a reasonable number of those killed overall involve killings of women and children.  The four Germans and the four Brazilians killed both included two children killed apiece.

I'm still unhappy with Israeli conduct here.  I know that Israel is not going to be involved in Lebanese recovery (I'm unsure if Lebanese politicians could even accept Israeli help if they wanted to - public opinion might be against it).  This means that Israel just blew up dozens of roads, power plants, etc. without compensation, probably yielding in another generation of angry poor people in the country and throughout the region.

[Lunar]

Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Sri Lanka, and Germany.

Innocents, many of them children, have been killed from these countries now.

[Lunar]

Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Sri Lanka, and Germany.

Innocents, many of them children, have been killed from these countries now.

You forgot one country on that list, Israel.

The Left always does.

Oh be quiet.  I dislike liberalism too.  It was simply a typo that I forgot to specify that Israel was doing the killings (I just woke up).  I'm largely pro-Israel and against the corrupt Palestinian and neighboring governments.  However, I do not support this latest war which I do not feel is in anyone's best interests and is killing more people than it's saving both in the long-term and the short-term on both sides (like, say, Iraq).

[Lunar]

I wish the media would pay as much attention to the numerous civil wars in Africa as much as they do to this conflict. Millions dead in africa=not even a whisper. 500 dead in Israel/Lebanon=all day news coverage.

You have to understand that not all people were created equal in public ratings.  I think it goes something like:

White pretty girls aged 7-19
> The rest of America
> White Europeans
> By the "rest of America" I meant everyone but Mexicans.  The Mexicans go fourth.
> White people dying in the middle-east
> Brown people dying in the middle-east
> Successful Asians
> Everyone but Africa
> Africa

[Lunar]

Civilian casualties from states other than Lebanon and Israel.  Another Canadian and Brazilian were killed too, to give additional perspective from the previous map.

[Lunar]

I just find international casualties an interesting casualty mark.  The American was a guy in Israel killed by a Hezbollah rocket.

All according to wikipedia.