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  Zimbabwe to nationalise all land
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Author Topic: Zimbabwe to nationalise all land  (Read 8975 times)
AuH2O
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2004, 11:06:42 pm »

When in history have Sub-Saharan Africans produced a real civilization???

No, the like 10 years of being Pharoah do not count.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2004, 04:43:05 am »

When in history have Sub-Saharan Africans produced a real civilization???

No, the like 10 years of being Pharoah do not count.

Ghana
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Jens
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2004, 04:47:28 am »

When in history have Sub-Saharan Africans produced a real civilization???

No, the like 10 years of being Pharoah do not count.
Mail, Songhai, Monomatapa, Ashanti and the empire of Prester Johan, Ethiopia to name but a few
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2004, 04:49:20 am »

Zulu
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Jens
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2004, 04:53:13 am »

Zulu
Forgot those guys. That's what I call military organisation. Remember Isandlwana - that was not a battle that Black Adder would have enjoyed Wink
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2004, 12:28:31 pm »

Zulu
Forgot those guys. That's what I call military organisation. Remember Isandlwana - that was not a battle that Black Adder would have enjoyed Wink

Khambula was *much* better Wink
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Jens
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« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2004, 12:33:27 pm »

Zulu
Forgot those guys. That's what I call military organisation. Remember Isandlwana - that was not a battle that Black Adder would have enjoyed Wink

Khambula was *much* better Wink
That was quite a battle, and a good example of how hard it is to defeat a well prepared and dug-in
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AuH2O
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« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2004, 09:24:33 pm »

No, I meant real civilizations, not make-believe tales.

i.e. cases where there is evidence of their existence...
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Jens
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2004, 02:39:27 am »

No, I meant real civilizations, not make-believe tales.

i.e. cases where there is evidence of their existence...
Well, the really isn't much doubt about the existence of the Zulu Kingdom and it seems to me that you don't know very much about African history if you claim that countries like Ashanti and Songhai are "make-believe tales."
There is absolutely no doubt about the fact that Ethiopia is a very old country. There exists some very good portuguese descriptions from several explorers visiting Ethiopia between 1500 and 1600 - a powerfull and quite developed country even at that time whose roots can be traced back to Axum more that a 1000 years before
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2004, 05:46:57 am »

No, I meant real civilizations, not make-believe tales.

i.e. cases where there is evidence of their existence...

Um... there have been trading links with sub-saharan africa since God knows how long!

There is a reason why the slave trade is known as the slave trade...
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AuH2O
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2004, 05:31:40 pm »

Yeah, of course there have been tribes... however, there is no African equivalent to the Romans, Chinese, Atzecs, etc.
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opebo
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2004, 06:24:21 pm »

No, I meant real civilizations, not make-believe tales.

i.e. cases where there is evidence of their existence...

Hah, good one!  Revisionist history is such a laugh.
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Jens
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« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2004, 11:34:01 am »

Yeah, of course there have been tribes... however, there is no African equivalent to the Romans, Chinese, Atzecs, etc.
Well, it looks like you need to do just a bit of reading about African history.
Al and I have already given you the names of a couple of the civilizations that has existed in Africa thoughout the times -
and remember that most of the "common knowledge history" taught in the schools tends to be rather "eurocentric" and affected by the Victorian idea about the white man's mission af bringing "civilization" to the savage Africans and Asians.
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AuH2O
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« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2004, 04:50:25 pm »
« Edited: June 24, 2004, 04:51:10 pm by AuH2O »

Sure, you named some big tribes, but that isn't the same as a civilization. The Romans had the aqueducts, massive road systems, the Colosseum, etc. Chinese people built the Great Wall. Africans have accomplished nothing of significance... ever. History tends to focus on things that matter, which is why Africa does not figure prominently.

Microevolution is probably to blame. African societies prioritized skills such as hunting prowess, since there was more than enough food available. In other places, survival was more difficult. Heck, Caucasoids and Mongoloids probably left Africa because the Negroids were kicking their butts.

But the downside is, when someone figured out a better way to do things, they were declared a witch or whatever and eaten for dinner. Over enough generations, the effect becomes significant.

Oh, and Jens, are you in college? Curious what school you go to.
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Jens
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« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2004, 05:21:51 pm »

Sure, you named some big tribes, but that isn't the same as a civilization. The Romans had the aqueducts, massive road systems, the Colosseum, etc. Chinese people built the Great Wall. Africans have accomplished nothing of significance... ever. History tends to focus on things that matter, which is why Africa does not figure prominently.

Microevolution is probably to blame. African societies prioritized skills such as hunting prowess, since there was more than enough food available. In other places, survival was more difficult. Heck, Caucasoids and Mongoloids probably left Africa because the Negroids were kicking their butts.

But the downside is, when someone figured out a better way to do things, they were declared a witch or whatever and eaten for dinner. Over enough generations, the effect becomes significant.

Oh, and Jens, are you in college? Curious what school you go to.
Again, we turn to Ethiopia where there is a fair amount of "Grand Buildings" and a long lasting civilization - strong enough to withstand the pressure from the Caliphate and its decendants and still, a 1000 years after being cut of from the rest of the christian world, possed some kind of christianity.
What we lack is written evidence and that is were Africa fails. No African nation managed to create its own alfabeth and suffered from the lack of fertile lands that is so abundant in the Fertile Crecent, around the Nile, the Indus and the Yellow River.
The Portuguese decribes, even with the distortion when decripting heathens, quite advanced societies in Monomatapa (Present day Zimbabwe) and Congo and cooperated with native kings all over Africa until the industrial breakthrough and the scramble for Africa
(The main reason why the Europeans were able to take over most of Africa from 1870 to 1920 was a highly succesfull weapons embargo. In Senegal and Natal the embargo failed and the French and the English had one hell of a fight)

besides that I study at the University of Copenhagen (We have no colleges in Denmark). I think that you would call me a postgraduate (again different system makes the translation a bit difficult). I have a BA in history and a MA in African Studies (that is why I know a bit about Africa, but mostly modern)

Nice to see an answer with a bit more motivation eventhough I disagree Wink
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MarkDel
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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2004, 09:01:02 pm »

This isn't anything to do with "socialism". This is a return to feudalism.

Al,

When you grow up, you'll realize that socialism in practice IS feudalism.
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Jens
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2004, 04:54:50 am »

This isn't anything to do with "socialism". This is a return to feudalism.

Al,

When you grow up, you'll realize that socialism in practice IS feudalism.
Feudalism is a system where power is in the hands of powerfull magnates who de facto control their own land. The King has very little power himself and is dependant on the coorporation of the magnates, who has has their own armies and juristical kontrol in their territories. Quite often the magnates conducted war on their own.
Another term used to describe the feudal state is as an oligopolistic system. Oligopolistic is the opposit of monopolistic where the state has a monopoly of power, whereas in the oligopolistic system the power is spread out.
In terms of power the feudal state is a oligopolistic state.
The communist states that has existed or still exists like China or Poland are - as nearly all modern states - monopolistic states where the bulk of power is helt by the central government.

If you would like to know more, I recommend: Raaflaub & Rosenstein: War and Society in the Ancient and Medieval Worlds. London 1999
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MarkDel
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2004, 08:01:35 am »

Jens,

Yes, I'm quite aware of what feudalism is, so I don't need your lectures or any outside reading references. It's painfully clear from your post that my comment went way over your head.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2004, 08:05:21 am »

Jens,

Yes, I'm quite aware of what feudalism is, so I don't need your lectures or any outside reading references. It's painfully clear from your post that my comment went way over your head.

Please explain what you define Socialism as.
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MarkDel
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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2004, 08:16:19 am »
« Edited: June 25, 2004, 08:17:01 am by MarkDel »

Al,

Come on, I know you're a smart guy. Forget for a minute that you and Jens are in love with theoretical bullsh*t and then go back and read what I said again. This has nothing to do with DEFINITIONS or THEORY...I am way past that. I'm talking about the practical impact of application of socialism on average citizens...try thinking in the real world and outside the cozy confines of the classroom.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2004, 08:41:37 am »

Al,

Come on, I know you're a smart guy. Forget for a minute that you and Jens are in love with theoretical bullsh*t and then go back and read what I said again. This has nothing to do with DEFINITIONS or THEORY...I am way past that. I'm talking about the practical impact of application of socialism on average citizens...try thinking in the real world and outside the cozy confines of the classroom.

Well I would argue that the Leninism is nothing more than "cargo cult socialism" and that as a result none of the old Commie countries can be (IMO) thought of as Socialist.

In the real world, the post war Labour government over here changed the U.K for the better by introducing the NHS and also saved millions of real people from dire poverty.
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W in 2004
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« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2004, 08:42:49 am »

Hi, to my socialist buddy Al.  I am not up to date on all of what is taking place in Zimbabwe, but I am definitely against the nationalization of land.  If there are socialists involved in Zimbabwe, I am sure there is going to be trouble.  Hopefully the people of Zimbabwe will not trade their freedom for the slavery of socialism.

“The Founding Fathers knew a government can’t control the economy without controlling people.  And they knew when a government set out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose.  So we have come to a time for choosing.”
-- Ronald Reagan
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MarkDel
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« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2004, 09:30:54 am »

Al,

Come on, I know you're a smart guy. Forget for a minute that you and Jens are in love with theoretical bullsh*t and then go back and read what I said again. This has nothing to do with DEFINITIONS or THEORY...I am way past that. I'm talking about the practical impact of application of socialism on average citizens...try thinking in the real world and outside the cozy confines of the classroom.

Well I would argue that the Leninism is nothing more than "cargo cult socialism" and that as a result none of the old Commie countries can be (IMO) thought of as Socialist.

In the real world, the post war Labour government over here changed the U.K for the better by introducing the NHS and also saved millions of real people from dire poverty.

Al,

The point I'm trying to make is that since the very base principles of socialism are in fact contrary to human nature, that what emerges from attempts to establish pure socialism is essentially glorifed totalitarianism. The Soviet Union and virtually every other Marxist/Socialist state in the 20th Century serves as a pretty good proof of my hypothesis. As for you point about England, employing a few policies consistent with socialist tendencies is NOT the same as employing a true socialist state. Even in the US we have adopted certain policies that have socialist roots, but that doesn't mean we a re a socialist country, nor is England.
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Jens
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« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2004, 12:39:12 pm »

Jens,

Yes, I'm quite aware of what feudalism is, so I don't need your lectures or any outside reading references. It's painfully clear from your post that my comment went way over your head.
No need to become condescending!

Al,

Come on, I know you're a smart guy. Forget for a minute that you and Jens are in love with theoretical bullsh*t and then go back and read what I said again. This has nothing to do with DEFINITIONS or THEORY...I am way past that. I'm talking about the practical impact of application of socialism on average citizens...try thinking in the real world and outside the cozy confines of the classroom.
The reason why I became a socialist has nothing to do with any cozy classrooms. I grew up in an area where the harsh economic politics of the conservative government in the eighties createted widespred poverty and enormous social problems. That was good people who had been working hard all their life who lost their jobs and the government didn't cared, because it wasn't their core voters. I say that uncontrolled marked ecomony creates social inequality and I believe that every human counts. In a democratic socialist society (not China or USSR - they only had a socialist facade) everybody should get a change to do his best - It should be a question about abillity not where you are from or your daddys surname!
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MarkDel
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« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2004, 03:28:27 pm »

Jens,

I refer you to my last post in which I explained to Al why I feel that the socialism of which you and he speak is purely theoretical and has no practical application because it is counter intuitive to human nature. No nation that has fully adopted socialist principles has ever turned out to be anything other than a dictatorship, where precious few control the resources and the thought process of the vast majority.
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