Child Labor Restriction Bill

[Jake]

Question, Jake: why should the President be allowed to veto a bill and the Senate not be allowed to override it? Seems like this could be used by Presidents to kill bills they don't like without having to risk veto overrides by simply waiting until right after an election...

I could ask you the same thing about why the Senate could wait until the very end to approve a bill. The only answer is simple, that's the rules and procedures we operate under.

[WMS]

Question, Jake: why should the President be allowed to veto a bill and the Senate not be allowed to override it? Seems like this could be used by Presidents to kill bills they don't like without having to risk veto overrides by simply waiting until right after an election...

I could ask you the same thing about why the Senate could wait until the very end to approve a bill. The only answer is simple, that's the rules and procedures we operate under.

But shouldn't the bill die at the end of a Senate then? Or else the outgoing Senators should be allowed to vote on it? This seems like a rather authoritarian grant of power to the President then...

[Dr. Cynic]

Well, if Senator Hawk sees fit, he can withdraw my vote. However, I hold that my vote is legal, and I refuse to withdraw it myself.

[Speed of Sound]

Aye

[Democratic Hawk]

All I can do is refer to Article 5 of the OSPR Section 3: Rules on Veto Overrides:

1. If a piece of legislation is vetoed by the President, the sponsor of the bill must let the PPT know publicly on the Senate floor within seventy-two (72) hours of the veto being placed whether he wishes to have a vote to override the veto.  If he replies in the negative or fails to reply within the given time, the legislation will be withdrawn from the Senate floor.

This particular Bill was vetoed by the President on the 4th September 2006 . That very same day, Senator MasterJedi, as sponsor, gave notice that he would seek an override vote. This met the necessary 72 hour time limit

Therefore, as the newly elected PPT, I granted his request in accordance with the aforesaid Clause 1 of Section 3, Article 5 of the OSPR

It is my intention to count all votes cast as valid

'Hawk'

[Jake]

I'll be forced to lodge a court case challenging your actions in that case.

[Democratic Hawk]

I'll be forced to lodge a court case challenging your actions in that case.

Other than act in accordance with the OSPR, I don't see what else can be done. The President vetoed the Bill on the 4th September and Senator MasterJedi gave notice of wishing to seek an override well within the 72 hours time limit

As PPT, I'm acting impartially. If the override succeeds, it succeeds; if it fails, it fails. I can live with that and move forward, can you? My own opinion on the legislation is irrelevant. I actually voted in favor of it because I recall supporting the very same piece of legislations passed by the then Southeast Regional Assembly. And one thing I'm not is a hypocrite

A Senator made a request for an override, furthermore it was seconded, which I granted because it, to the best of my knowledge, is permissable under the OSPR. I've also read the Constitution and found nothing that forbids my decision

I suspect I was overwhelmingly elected as PPT because the Senate trusts me to act in an even-handed manner, irrespective of my own personal opinions

BTW, something I should have made perfectly clear earlier today, in future, you communicate with me with civility or not at all. I don't take too kindly to being told to "shut my mouth". And if I hit a raw nerve beforehand, then, given your disgraceful tactics in the last Senate, it was no more than what you deserved. You can either be a good senator or a bad one, take your pick

'Hawk'

[jerusalemcar5]

*slips a Nay in and runs from flames being thrown around Senate chamber*

[Speed of Sound]

*slips a Nay in and runs from flames being thrown around Senate chamber*

[minionofmidas]

Either, 1. this bill is still operating under the term of the last Senate, meaning newly elected Senators would be ineligible to vote on it, 2. this bill was reintroduced in the new Senate, meaning that we should be waiting until the requisite debate time has passed and then move on the voting on its final passage, or 3. we're trying to mish mash these options together by introducing a bill directly to the floor in its final state, something that Senate procedure doesn't allow.

While 1. is clearly not an option, 2., at least on the face of it, sounds like the correct procedure.

[Jake]

Other than act in accordance with the OSPR, I don't see what else can be done. The President vetoed the Bill on the 4th September and Senator MasterJedi gave notice of wishing to seek an override well within the 72 hours time limit

As PPT, I'm acting impartially. If the override succeeds, it succeeds; if it fails, it fails. I can live with that and move forward, can you? My own opinion on the legislation is irrelevant. I actually voted in favor of it because I recall supporting the very same piece of legislations passed by the then Southeast Regional Assembly. And one thing I'm not is a hypocrite

A Senator made a request for an override, furthermore it was seconded, which I granted because it, to the best of my knowledge, is permissable under the OSPR. I've also read the Constitution and found nothing that forbids my decision

I suspect I was overwhelmingly elected as PPT because the Senate trusts me to act in an even-handed manner, irrespective of my own personal opinions

BTW, something I should have made perfectly clear earlier today, in future, you communicate with me with civility or not at all. I don't take too kindly to being told to "shut my mouth". And if I hit a raw nerve beforehand, then, given your disgraceful tactics in the last Senate, it was no more than what you deserved. You can either be a good senator or a bad one, take your pick

'Hawk'

You again show your two great skills as a person.

1. You can write five paragraphs and still fail to make a point.
2. You can ignore other people's points, and still write five paragraphs.

You still haven't answered my concerns about the way this was carried over between senate sessions, nor have you addressed my concerns about how other legislation was carried over in comparison. Do so, and I'll probably stop making my case for why you're wrong.

Lewis, I totally agree that #2 is the correct procedure that should've been taken in this case. This legislation was quite clearly expired, and should've been reintroduced like all other legislation was in the expired legislation thread as if it was a new bill. I'm not saying this bill should be thrown out and never discussed again, I'm simply saying that moving straight to a veto override is breaking a number of senate rules and procedures.

[Democratic Hawk]

When was this legislation vetoed by the President and when did Senator MasterJedi request that a veto override be taken? Answer: 4th September 2006

On the 30th August, Senator MasterJedi, then PPT, announced that the Bill had enough votes to pass giving senators 24 hours notice to change their votes. However, he gave public notice that he had to take leave of absence and he did not return until 2nd September 2006. On his return, he, as Dean of the Senate and bearning in mind the absence of the Vice President, saw fit to present the Bill to the President for his signature. The Bill having secured 7 votes in favor, 2 against, with 0 abstentions. So, in effect, the Bill had been legitimately all done and dusted before the end of the Fourteenth Senate, which expired noon Eastern on the 1st September 2006

The President vetoed the Bill on the 4th September 2006 and Senator MasterJedi gave due notice (i.e. within the 72 hours as stipulated by the OSPR) that he would seek a veto override, which I granted

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

3. we're trying to mish mash these options together by introducing a bill directly to the floor in its final state, something that Senate procedure doesn't allow.

While 1. is clearly not an option, 2., at least on the face of it, sounds like the correct procedure.

Speaking of 3, it is my intention to propose an amendment to the OSPR that would allow all legislation currently on the floor at the end of the one Senate term to remain on the floor in its final state for the new Senate term

If nothing else, it would a be a more efficient way of going about business. I have attempted to explain the background with regards to this Bill in the previous post. It is bearing this in mind, that I have granted the override

The President vetoed the Bill on the 4th September and Senator MasterJedi gave notice to request an override that very same day, which was well within the 72 hours time limit specified under Article 5, Section 3, Clause 1 of the OSPR

I have contacted Senator MasterJedi requesting that he contact me as a matter of urgency regarding this matter

'Hawk'

[Jake]

The bill was not presented to the President until after the term had expired, meaning it should've gone into the expired legislation thread, just like the other bills. Case closed.

[Democratic Hawk]

The bill was not presented to the President until after the term had expired, meaning it should've gone into the expired legislation thread, just like the other bills. Case closed.

As I've said, I'm waiting to hear from the Senator as regards this matter

'Hawk'

[Ebowed]

The bill was not presented to the President until after the term had expired, meaning it should've gone into the expired legislation thread, just like the other bills. Case closed.

I agree with this.

[Democratic Hawk]

I have contacted Senator MasterJedi regarding this matter and I'm awaiting his reply

'Hawk'

[minionofmidas]

The Bill having secured 7 votes in favor, 2 against, with 0 abstentions. So, in effect, the Bill had been legitimately all done and dusted before the end of the Fourteenth Senate, which expired noon Eastern on the 1st September 2006

It's not legitimately all done and dusted until it's either signed by the President or passed over his veto.

[minionofmidas]

I'm seriously minded, after all this carry-on, to propose an amendment to the OSPR that would permit all legislation on the floor of the previous Senate to be stay on the floor for the new Senate. Because, as things, its grossly inefficient and it won't do!

'Hawk'

I can understand that*. But as of now, there seems to be no such legislation.

*well, in a case such as this one. But think of all eventualities, please. What about a vote that's still open, with the result unclear, when the term expires? Who gets to be allowed to vote?

[Democratic Hawk]

The Bill having secured 7 votes in favor, 2 against, with 0 abstentions. So, in effect, the Bill had been legitimately all done and dusted before the end of the Fourteenth Senate, which expired noon Eastern on the 1st September 2006

It's not legitimately all done and dusted until it's either signed by the President or passed over his veto.

It, seemingly, had passed the appropriate stage to be presented to the President before the end of the Fourteenth Senate and I'm trying to ascertain, whether it was on these grounds, that the Senator saw fit to present it to the President on his return, which was evidently after the Fourteenth Senate expired

The absence of a functioning Vice President did not help the situation and it's wrong that business should have to grind to a halt because of it. The Senator gave due leave of absence

I'm seriously minded, after all this carry-on, to propose an amendment to the OSPR that would permit all legislation on the floor of the previous Senate to be stay on the floor for the new Senate. Because, as things stand, its grossly inefficient. It isn't good enough

'Hawk'

[Democratic Hawk]

I'm seriously minded, after all this carry-on, to propose an amendment to the OSPR that would permit all legislation on the floor of the previous Senate to be stay on the floor for the new Senate. Because, as things, its grossly inefficient and it won't do!

'Hawk'

I can understand that*. But as of now, there seems to be no such legislation.

*well, in a case such as this one. But think of all eventualities, please. What about a vote that's still open, with the result unclear, when the term expires? Who gets to be allowed to vote?

I see no reason why new senators can't pick up from where the old ones left off, at whichever stage the legislation is at, provided they have taken their oath of office. This is an issue that can be readily debated by the Senate once I propose the changes I feel are necessary, in order, to make this place function more efficiently

'Hawk'

[WMS]

Question, Jake: why should the President be allowed to veto a bill and the Senate not be allowed to override it? Seems like this could be used by Presidents to kill bills they don't like without having to risk veto overrides by simply waiting until right after an election...

I could ask you the same thing about why the Senate could wait until the very end to approve a bill. The only answer is simple, that's the rules and procedures we operate under.

But shouldn't the bill die at the end of a Senate then? Or else the outgoing Senators should be allowed to vote on it? This seems like a rather authoritarian grant of power to the President then...

My point remains.

[Jake]

It was answered above. The term expired before the bill was even presented to the president for his signature, meaning it goes into the expired legislation thread.

[WMS]

It was answered above. The term expired before the bill was even presented to the president for his signature, meaning it goes into the expired legislation thread.

So technically there was no veto then either?

[Democratic Hawk]

It was answered above. The term expired before the bill was even presented to the president for his signature, meaning it goes into the expired legislation thread.

So technically there was no veto then either?

Be it the case that if Senator MasterJedi incorrectly presented the Bill to the President, it follows that it was inappropriate for the President to veto it

'Hawk'