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12th Doctor
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« Reply #825 on: January 26, 2004, 07:23:51 pm »

It was a very, very hard war to support as time went on.   Especially after the release of the Pentagon Papers.  I don't think anyone was untouched by it.   It was not as clear cut as WWII.    I think we'll get a chance to see the troops react again.

It was very far from being as clear cut as WWII.
Opposition to the Vietnam war was greater than any other war in American history.  The sad thing is, we went knid of half-assed into Vietnam.  I wouldn't have supported it from the outset, but put your will into it if you are going to fight a war.  For example, I would have voted no in authorizing force in Iraq but yes on the 87 Billion for Iraq.

Is that so?  Edwards voted against spending the money.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #826 on: January 26, 2004, 07:53:33 pm »

So did Kerry, and Gephardt voted for the 87B.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #827 on: January 26, 2004, 08:29:22 pm »

So did Kerry, and Gephardt voted for the 87B.

Exactly.  So, why not support Gepardt (when he was still in it) or Liebermann then?
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #828 on: January 26, 2004, 08:41:18 pm »

Because I feel Edwards has the best chance of beating Bush.
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mossy
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« Reply #829 on: January 26, 2004, 09:57:52 pm »

It was a very, very hard war to support as time went on.   Especially after the release of the Pentagon Papers.  I don't think anyone was untouched by it.   It was not as clear cut as WWII.    I think we'll get a chance to see the troops react again.

It was very far from being as clear cut as WWII.
Opposition to the Vietnam war was greater than any other war in American history.  The sad thing is, we went knid of half-assed into Vietnam.  I wouldn't have supported it from the outset, but put your will into it if you are going to fight a war.  For example, I would have voted no in authorizing force in Iraq but yes on the 87 Billion for Iraq.

Is that so?  Edwards voted against spending the money.

If memory serves me right, Bush refused to furnish cost estimates prior to the vote to attack Iraq, saying impossible to furnish this.  (Not true, BTW--they had cost estimates in Feb. 2001, right after the inaugruation) then Congress reluctantly went along with the invasion, and *right* after the war had begun, Bush asked for the $87 billion.   It's hard to vote no when troops were already under fire.   That's what the choice was, which actually was no choice at all.
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Mort from NewYawk
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« Reply #830 on: January 26, 2004, 11:49:48 pm »

Now this story fromt he WSJ today could sum up what a lot of vets thinka bout Kerry.  My father could have written this article.  he is a vetnam vet that was awarded the bronze star and he says kerry is a disgrace for turning his back on the men who were still over there fighting like my father.  Plus vets hate anythign to do with Jane "I am a traitor" Fonda.  My father would shut the TV off when she came on when I was growing up.

..........Of all the "lessons of Vietnam," surely one is that America needs a leader capable of demonstrating in himself, and encouraging in others, the resolve to finish what they have collectively started.

I believe that those who still feel we should have finished what we started in Vietnam are very likely to be voting Republican this fall.

Kerry's switch on Vietnam is not what the broad middle will take issue with, it's the failure of his positions and his personality to gel into a character that people will want as President.
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mossy
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« Reply #831 on: January 27, 2004, 12:55:30 am »

[
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I believe that those who still feel we should have finished what we started in Vietnam are very likely to be voting Republican this fall.

Kerry's switch on Vietnam is not what the broad middle will take issue with, it's the failure of his positions and his personality to gel into a character that people will want as President.
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The GOP will likely use this -- VN protesting--but it should be remembered that this was a winner of the Silver Star and Purple Heart who was out of the service, and was protesting to get the rest out of VN.  If ever a person has earned the right to protest, it's a purple heart winner of that war, in my opinion.  I think Kerry is handlilng it right--"it was a bad time"....those who have seen "Born on the Fourth of July" will understand the anguish of knowing one got screwed by one's own government.
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jravnsbo
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« Reply #832 on: January 27, 2004, 09:19:19 am »

but kerry also threw back his medals, (well somebody's calling them his at the time)  I know a lot of vets personally that are independant or democrats around my area that think his actions after he came home were reprehensible.

In fact they compare him to Pete Rose,  great on the field but dishonorable off.  Sounded about right to me.  They all said they'd support other Democrats but not him, they tend to more like Clark it seems.

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I believe that those who still feel we should have finished what we started in Vietnam are very likely to be voting Republican this fall.

Kerry's switch on Vietnam is not what the broad middle will take issue with, it's the failure of his positions and his personality to gel into a character that people will want as President.
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The GOP will likely use this -- VN protesting--but it should be remembered that this was a winner of the Silver Star and Purple Heart who was out of the service, and was protesting to get the rest out of VN.  If ever a person has earned the right to protest, it's a purple heart winner of that war, in my opinion.  I think Kerry is handlilng it right--"it was a bad time"....those who have seen "Born on the Fourth of July" will understand the anguish of knowing one got screwed by one's own government.
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mossy
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« Reply #833 on: January 27, 2004, 11:25:17 am »

but kerry also threw back his medals, (well somebody's calling them his at the time)  I know a lot of vets personally that are independant or democrats around my area that think his actions after he came home were reprehensible.

In fact they compare him to Pete Rose,  great on the field but dishonorable off.  Sounded about right to me.  They all said they'd support other Democrats but not him, they tend to more like Clark it seems.

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I believe that those who still feel we should have finished what we started in Vietnam are very likely to be voting Republican this fall.

Kerry's switch on Vietnam is not what the broad middle will take issue with, it's the failure of his positions and his personality to gel into a character that people will want as President.
Quote
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You know when one is protesting you want to make the most powerful statement you can--stuff you do for the cameras.  It strikes as as just a visual.  Actually, that he organized despite organized scorn from the LBJ WH that was out of control, and out of step with the country, and it was people like Kerry that eventually caused LBJ, a fellow dem,  to not run again.   I see those vets that protested publicly as sort of heros all over again.  And you know the rest.  The people turned to Nixon to get them out of VN.  And he did, and it was not easy.    
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jravnsbo
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« Reply #834 on: January 27, 2004, 01:48:11 pm »

I don't agree with the protests at all, but if he is going to use it he should also let it be known he turned his back on his country too when he got home.  That is my point.


but kerry also threw back his medals, (well somebody's calling them his at the time)  I know a lot of vets personally that are independant or democrats around my area that think his actions after he came home were reprehensible.

In fact they compare him to Pete Rose,  great on the field but dishonorable off.  Sounded about right to me.  They all said they'd support other Democrats but not him, they tend to more like Clark it seems.

[
Quote
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I believe that those who still feel we should have finished what we started in Vietnam are very likely to be voting Republican this fall.

Kerry's switch on Vietnam is not what the broad middle will take issue with, it's the failure of his positions and his personality to gel into a character that people will want as President.
Quote
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You know when one is protesting you want to make the most powerful statement you can--stuff you do for the cameras.  It strikes as as just a visual.  Actually, that he organized despite organized scorn from the LBJ WH that was out of control, and out of step with the country, and it was people like Kerry that eventually caused LBJ, a fellow dem,  to not run again.   I see those vets that protested publicly as sort of heros all over again.  And you know the rest.  The people turned to Nixon to get them out of VN.  And he did, and it was not easy.    
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Saratoga2DM
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« Reply #835 on: January 27, 2004, 04:13:56 pm »

Hello All:

Tonight is the night in New Hampshire and we will see if Kerry will maintain his lead or if Dean can recover from his loss in Iowa.  Edwards is a potential upsetter based on his showing in Iowa, but tonight is the true test of Wesley Clark's candidacy.  

I want to take this opportunity to say that even though I support Dean, I want to wish the candidates and their supporters on this forum all the best.  After all, tommorow is another day but that day will reveal which candidates will keep their hats in the ring.    

See you later and keep watching the CNN.  
 
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M
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« Reply #836 on: January 27, 2004, 04:17:36 pm »

I have to say FNC gives great analysis whether you agree with them or not. In my opinion, Brit Hume is one of the best and most evenhanded in reporting people on cable news today.
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jravnsbo
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« Reply #837 on: January 27, 2004, 05:47:23 pm »

plus fox always has the results first! Smiley

but I channel hop to the most interesting storylines.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #838 on: January 27, 2004, 05:48:00 pm »

I have to say FNC gives great analysis whether you agree with them or not. In my opinion, Brit Hume is one of the best and most evenhanded in reporting people on cable news today.
Yep.  Because CNN is a downright anti-semetic network.

Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Platypus
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« Reply #839 on: January 27, 2004, 07:38:38 pm »

Best analysis is Newshour on PBS

but Fox or CNN do gets the news first, granted.
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #840 on: January 27, 2004, 08:15:34 pm »

plus fox always has the results first! Smiley

but I channel hop to the most interesting storylines.

I flip away when they cut to the candidate HQs. Those are the dumbest segments.  Nothing of value is ever learned.
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YRABNNRM
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« Reply #841 on: January 27, 2004, 08:19:16 pm »

I have to say FNC gives great analysis whether you agree with them or not. In my opinion, Brit Hume is one of the best and most evenhanded in reporting people on cable news today.

I agree, Brit is my favorite.
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NHPolitico
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« Reply #842 on: January 30, 2004, 07:05:26 am »

McAuliffe has lost his mind, I guess.  Did he really think this statement was helpful in any way to Dems in the state?

McAuliffe statement defended by NH Democrats
Union Leader
1/30/04

Top state Democrats yesterday defended the candid assessment of their party’s national chairman that New Hampshire should vote Democratic in November if it wants to retain its first-in-the-nation Presidential primary.

Key Republicans and one former state Democratic chairman, however, said the primary’s future should not be linked to general election results.

Former Gov. Jeanne Shaheen and state party chair Kathy Sullivan said Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe was trying to rally New Hampshire faithful when he said the future of the primary depends on it becoming a “blue state.”

Secretary of State William Gardner said he wished McAuliffe had not said that, but said he was saying what a party chairman should say.

Republican National Committeeman Tom Rath said McAuliffe set an unfair “litmus test” and Sen. John Sununu called it “short-sighted.”

In a Wednesday interview, McAuliffe voiced personal support for keeping New Hampshire’s primary and Iowa’s caucus the nation’s first tests of candidate strength. But he estimated that 90 percent of the Democratic National Committee’s members wants to eliminate their leadoff positions. Iowa holds the nation’s first caucus eight days before New Hampshire’s primary.

McAuliffe said New Hampshire’s record voter turnout was “first and foremost” helpful for the state. But he said that to change minds on the DNC, “The second part of it is even more critical. New Hampshire needs to make itself a blue state in November 2004.” That means the state needs to give its four electoral votes to the Democratic nominee, not President George W. Bush.

The state supported Bush over Al Gore by a mere 7,000 votes in 2000. It supported Bill Clinton in 1996 and 1992, but had backed Republicans in the six elections before that.

Among the anti-New Hampshire forces are Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell and Michigan Sen. Carl Levin, who say their states more accurately reflect the nation’s diversity. The New York Times has editorialized in favor of regional primaries, insisting New Hampshire has lost its retail politics flavor.

McAuliffe, in a deal with Michigan Democrats, will appoint a commission to recommend in early 2006 how the party should handle its 2008 convention delegate selection process. It will then be taken up by the DNC’s Rules and By-Laws Committee.

If the DNC eventually rules against New Hampshire, a state law will keep the state first by seven days. But the DNC could insist that candidates not campaign here in 2008 and could block from the 2008 convention any New Hampshire delegates selected in a non-sanctioned event.

Rath said, “There can never be a guarantee on the way this state will vote. This was an unfortunate way to couch this thing. To say this is a litmus test of whether we get to keep the Democratic primary is not appropriate.”

Sununu called it “the wrong standard” and cited Clinton and Jimmy Carter’s successes as “cases where a Democrat could argue it was very helpful to their party.”

Republican Executive Councilor Ruth-Griffin has worked to preserve the state’s GOP primary, and winning the electoral votes “has never been a prerequisite.”

Former state Democratic chairman and DNC member Joe Keefe said becoming a blue state would help, but should not be “a necessary condition because only one party wins the election. Whether it turns out to be a red or blue state is largely besides the point.”

The current DNC rule allows New Hampshire to hold its primary a week before any other state. The Republican rule contains no such explicit exemption, but state Republicans have preserved the leadoff status, thanks in part to Bush’s support.

Gardner cited the record Democratic primary turnout of 219,787 and estimated that 70 to 80 percent of the state’s registered Democrats voted. “No other state can lay claim to anything like that percentage,” he said. “No other state will be remotely close to that.”

Gardner said McAuliffe’s comments are “the type of thing a chairman of a party says. The truth is, neither party can guarantee that.”

Shaheen said she is confident that if John Kerry wins the Presidency, he will use his clout to protect New Hampshire and Iowa.

“The record number of Democrats and independents we saw here certainly think New Hampshire should be a blue state, and there is frustration about the direction in which George Bush is leading this country,” Shaheen said.
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opebo
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« Reply #843 on: January 30, 2004, 07:30:31 am »

Maccauliffe really does seem like a loose cannon sometimes.  The Dems seem to have a lot of those.

NH should go Republican reliably in November.
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afleitch
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« Reply #844 on: January 30, 2004, 10:42:08 am »

This election will be close. Regardless of his successes and failures, there are many people who simply want Bush out, no matter how Iraq or the economy is doing, many of whom did not vote at all last time round. If they come out to vote in some key states then they could swing it in the Dems favour. I have the feeling that on the election night, it will be the Western states that will be close and being the last to vote it will be exciting!
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jravnsbo
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« Reply #845 on: January 30, 2004, 11:06:14 am »

taxes will be a big factor in NH.  Bush is seeking to make his tax cuts permanent this year while Kerry wants to raise taxes.

Next unemployment in NH is VERY low compared to the nationa dn it has not been hit hard like other states, Nat avg is 5.7 , NH avg is 4.1.



Maccauliffe really does seem like a loose cannon sometimes.  The Dems seem to have a lot of those.

NH should go Republican reliably in November.
I've read that quite often now, but I really don't know what it's based on. For all I know and can see, if the Election is close, so is NH.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #846 on: January 30, 2004, 01:18:59 pm »

OK, I will say this one last time. There are a number of lean Rep swing states, such as NV, AZ and NH, that will vote Republican IF the Republicans win. But if the elections is close they might go Dem. People miss the fact that the GOP has won 6 out of the last 9 elections, and 2 of them in a landslide. This leads people to look at some states as more Republican than they really are. If a New Englander is the nominee, like Kerry, and the election is competitive, then New Hampshire will be in play. It would still be more likely to go Republican, but it would essentially be a tossup.

taxes will be a big factor in NH.  Bush is seeking to make his tax cuts permanent this year while Kerry wants to raise taxes.

Next unemployment in NH is VERY low compared to the nationa dn it has not been hit hard like other states, Nat avg is 5.7 , NH avg is 4.1.



Maccauliffe really does seem like a loose cannon sometimes.  The Dems seem to have a lot of those.

NH should go Republican reliably in November.
I've read that quite often now, but I really don't know what it's based on. For all I know and can see, if the Election is close, so is NH.
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opebo
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« Reply #847 on: January 30, 2004, 01:29:28 pm »

I think the impact of the tax issue is far less than many suspect on voting patterns.

The top 50% of the population pays 95% of all federal income & estate taxes - this fact is presented not as an argument one way or another regarding the fairness of the tax system, but rather to argue that on the tax issue, there exists such a huge divide between the taxed and the untaxed that minor fiddling at the edges makes little to no difference in voting patterns.

For the bottom 50%, they pay so little taxes, that even if their federal taxes were totally eliminated (as they were/will be for about 15 million people if the Bush tax cuts are made permanent) the net impact on their lives is rather small - in short - they recieve so much from government in terms of welfare, health care, etc that their sole and only interest is more government - government they don't have to pay for.

Yes there are Democrats in the top 50% who pay towards the 95% of taxes the top 50% pay, but these people in the top 50% who vote Democratic are overwhelmingly those who benifit from Goverment in that they are teachers, bureaucrats, government workers, etc, and thus are also in net receipt of tax revenue, not payers of tax.

A startling fact:

If you know just 5things about a person:

1) - If they work in the public or private sector:
3) - If they attend church regularly
4) - Their family income
5) - Marital status
6) - Field of study if higher educated

you can predict with 95% accuracy how they will vote

~~Gridlock is good!~~Vote for Divided Government~~
~~More Gridlock = Better Government~~

.....A Cunuck Libertarian.....




What you describe is the best indictment I can think of of the 'progressive' income tax.  Basically voters are incentivised to vote left-wing and rob their economic betters.  This is the best argument against tax cuts that reduce middle class taxes.  Republicans should never go along with this creation of a 'tax free' class.  Some kind of poll tax would be better.
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nclib
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« Reply #848 on: January 30, 2004, 01:41:12 pm »

If you know just 5things about a person:

1) - If they work in the public or private sector:
3) - If they attend church regularly
4) - Their family income
5) - Marital status
6) - Field of study if higher educated

you can predict with 95% accuracy how they will vote

I would agree that these are pretty accurate. I was just wondering what fields of study you'd associate with the Dems and likewise for the GOP.
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mossy
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« Reply #849 on: January 30, 2004, 02:03:57 pm »

GOP Business, investment, outdoor worker, sales

DEM teachers, health care workers, artisans,
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