Sweden and Finland set to join NATO in May

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

Is Cyprus a European country? Is Ukraine? Are Georgia and Armenia?

I don't know much about Cyprus, so IDK. Of course, Ukraine is a European country, it's in Eastern Europe.

I don't really consider Georgia and Armenia to be "European" countries. Eurasian is probably the best category but it's complex. Also, this is just my opinion.

[Lord Halifax]

Is Cyprus a European country? Is Ukraine? Are Georgia and Armenia?

Unlike the others Ukraine has 100% of its territory in Europe, so not sure why you included it. Ukraine is unquestionable a European country.

[Oryxslayer]

Just my opinion, however, Turkey should never be allowed into the EU.

I don't view Turkey as a "European" country (it really isn't. It's mostly in West Asia/the Middle East) and Turkey is not a trustworthy "ally".

Also, f**k Erdogan.

Is Cyprus a European country? Is Ukraine? Are Georgia and Armenia?

The only way to answer this question, in the same manner as membership in NATO, is to determine the opinions of the citizens and residents of said country.

[CumbrianLefty]

Do you think the country that gave us Mick Wallace and Claire Whatsherface will join NATO?

They amount to peanuts in electoral terms.

[Blue3]

Just my opinion, however, Turkey should never be allowed into the EU.

I don't view Turkey as a "European" country (it really isn't. It's mostly in West Asia/the Middle East) and Turkey is not a trustworthy "ally".

Also, f**k Erdogan.

Perhaps more open travel and migration within the EU will shift Turkey’s culture, and ultimately its politics. Isolation and sanctions don’t make a country open up, surprise surprise (see: Iran, North Korea, etc.)

[ηєω ƒяσηтιєя]

Perhaps more open travel and migration within the EU will shift Turkey’s culture, and ultimately its politics. Isolation and sanctions don’t make a country open up, surprise surprise (see: Iran, North Korea, etc.)

Those other countries aren't comparable to Turkey's situation. Also, neither Iran or North Korea want to join the EU lol.

Turkey (even under Erdogan) is considered to be one of the more "open" majority-Muslim countries. Anyway, Turkey's culture and people are generally more similar to the countries and people to the east and south of Turkey (West Asia/the Middle East).

Turkey doesn't belong in the EU because it's not really "European". Erdogan also knows that it's very unlikely Turkey will become a part of the EU. However, as I've said, all of this is just my opinion.

[GALeftist]

Do you think the country that gave us Mick Wallace and Claire Whatsherface will join NATO?

They amount to peanuts in electoral terms.

Yeah, the reason Ireland won't join NATO is it has no need to. Geographically, it has no reason to fear any invasion, and the army of a nation of 5 million probably wouldn't be big enough to move the needle in a modern war.

[CumbrianLefty]

Plus in the unlikely event of being threatened by invasion, they know a certain somebody would come to their aid swiftly - despite the somewhat "chequered" past relationship.

[Storr]

Cope:

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1681637396700430338?s=20

[Frodo]

I understand Finland and Sweden's interest, but Switzerland comes as a complete surprise.  I wonder why they want to join the program:

Sweden, Finland and Switzerland are considering security links with US National Guard, general says

The National Guard's State Partnership Program is a lesser-known but key military instrument for U.S. troops to build relationships with foreign militaries by conducting regular training and education exchanges with young officers. It partners National Guard units with host nations.

The program can help foreign military better shape their own operations to reflect Western military organization and equipment. That is something seen as key to getting a host of Eastern European nations on NATO standards to ease how multinational armies could conduct operations.

The National Guard program began 30 years ago after the collapse of the Soviet Union as former Soviet states looked for ways to move away from their communist-styled military organization. Ukraine was one of the first to join the National Guard program, partnering with California's National Guard. From the earliest days of Russia's invasion, Ukraine's air force has reached out for support to the California National Guard partners it trained with.

[Torrain]

I understand Finland and Sweden's interest, but Switzerland comes as a complete surprise.  I wonder why they want to join the program:

Swiss neutrality has been chipped away at in recent years - particularly since the February 2022 invasion.

They imposed sanctions on Russia for "serious violation of the most fundamental norms of international law". And a report from the Swiss Ministry of Defence has encouraged closer ties with NATO - including the potential for joint military exercises.

Also, while the Swiss public oppose NATO membership 2:1, recent polling showed a majority (56%) favoured closer ties and cooperation with NATO.

[Sir Mohamed]

I understand Finland and Sweden's interest, but Switzerland comes as a complete surprise.  I wonder why they want to join the program:

Swiss neutrality has been chipped away at in recent years - particularly since the February 2022 invasion.

They imposed sanctions on Russia for "serious violation of the most fundamental norms of international law". And a report from the Swiss Ministry of Defence has encouraged closer ties with NATO - including the potential for joint military exercises.

Also, while the Swiss public oppose NATO membership 2:1, recent polling showed a majority (56%) favoured closer ties and cooperation with NATO.

There are just instances where "neutrality" is not really an option. Not when you have such a clear right vs. wrong situation.

As for NATO membership, watching out for Austria seems more realistic, though I doubt it will actually happen. Both are fully surrounded by NATO members, so the situation is different from Finnland and Sweden.

[Torrain]

There are just instances where "neutrality" is not really an option.[/b] Not when you have such a clear right vs. wrong situation.

We are talking about the guys who sat out WW2 and took Nazi cash. Neutrality *shouldn't* have been an option on a couple of occasions, but it's only now they're actually shifting their position - I do think that's at least somewhat noteworthy.

As for NATO membership, watching out for Austria seems more realistic, though I doubt it will actually happen. Both are fully surrounded by NATO members, so the situation is different from Finnland and Sweden.

Austria does seem closest of the remaining Europe candidates (unless the Russians start cutting internet or energy cables in the Atlantic/Irish Sea, prompting some soul-searching in Dublin), but yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen anytime soon. There are neutrality clauses in the Austrian constitution (believe the Irish and Swiss are the same), so it would take some real maneuvering.

[Frodo]

We are approaching mid-September -how much longer will we have to wait before Turkey finally agrees to support Sweden's NATO membership bid?

On the brink of joining NATO, Sweden seeks to boost its defense spending by 28%

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

We are approaching mid-September -how much longer will we have to wait before Turkey finally agrees to support Sweden's NATO membership bid?

Allegedly, when the Parliament reconvenes in October. The cynic in me suggests it will be one of many "conciliatory" cards played by Turkey if and when Azerbaijan moves further into Armenia or Karabakh.

[Pres Mike]

If Turkey were a stable democracy (that looked like it would stay that way in the long-term) I would hypothetically support admitting them to the EU. That's pretty hypothetical though.

Even if Turkey was a perfect democracy, it will never join the EU. The populations of Europe do not want 70 million Muslims to join. Pretending there isn’t a bigoted element to Turkey membership debate is silly.

Serbia is more likely to join the EU than either Bosnia or Albania, despite Serbia being an a literal war with several EU members 25 years ago. Wanna guess what? Because Albania and Bosnia are Muslim nations. Well Bosnia kinda is.

[Sol]

If Turkey were a stable democracy (that looked like it would stay that way in the long-term) I would hypothetically support admitting them to the EU. That's pretty hypothetical though.

Even if Turkey was a perfect democracy, it will never join the EU. The populations of Europe do not want 70 million Muslims to join. Pretending there isn’t a bigoted element to Turkey membership debate is silly.

Serbia is more likely to join the EU than either Bosnia or Albania, despite Serbia being an a literal war with several EU members 25 years ago. Wanna guess what? Because Albania and Bosnia are Muslim nations. Well Bosnia kinda is.

Islamophobia is absolutely an element with Turkey (and religion more generally is involved with the construction of the concept of Europe, which is much of why Turkey is usually not considered European). But Bosnia and Albania are almost always considered European; the issue there is moreso that Bosnia has a political system incapable of political change and Albania is incredibly poor and politically dysfunctional.

[Pres Mike]

If Turkey were a stable democracy (that looked like it would stay that way in the long-term) I would hypothetically support admitting them to the EU. That's pretty hypothetical though.

Even if Turkey was a perfect democracy, it will never join the EU. The populations of Europe do not want 70 million Muslims to join. Pretending there isn’t a bigoted element to Turkey membership debate is silly.

Serbia is more likely to join the EU than either Bosnia or Albania, despite Serbia being an a literal war with several EU members 25 years ago. Wanna guess what? Because Albania and Bosnia are Muslim nations. Well Bosnia kinda is.

Islamophobia is absolutely an element with Turkey (and religion more generally is involved with the construction of the concept of Europe, which is much of why Turkey is usually not considered European). But Bosnia and Albania are almost always considered European; the issue there is moreso that Bosnia has a political system incapable of political change and Albania is incredibly poor and politically dysfunctional.

Are Bosnia and Albania poor canididates to join the EU in general? Yes.

If you told me that Serbia was just as behind to join the EU for different reasons, I would accept that. But Serbia is closer. Not close but closer. This despite the whole Kosovo issue and you know...Serbian troops fighting NATO troops and being bombed for genocide.

Fun fact. You know the 2002 law that allows the US to invade the Netherlands if any America is ever tried for war crimes? Only three indiviuals are named in the law in which the US will help the Hague. Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milošević, and Osama bin Laden

[ingemann]

There are just instances where "neutrality" is not really an option.[/b] Not when you have such a clear right vs. wrong situation.

We are talking about the guys who sat out WW2 and took Nazi cash. Neutrality *shouldn't* have been an option on a couple of occasions, but it's only now they're actually shifting their position - I do think that's at least somewhat noteworthy.

It made perfect sense to be neutral in under WW2 and the Cold War, what really have changed is that Switzerland have become an enclave a neutral enclave. What should lead to a rethinking of the geopolitical situation of Switzerland. The whole Nazi gold thing was the smart thing to do as it deincentivized Germany from invading Switzerland. But now what do the Swiss get out of their neutrality anymore, both morally but also practically?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I think another big issue with Turkey as an EU member is the giant border with syria and iraq: ironically if Kurdistan was independent they might have a palatable buffer.

[Lord Halifax]

I think another big issue with Turkey as an EU member is the giant border with syria and iraq: ironically if Kurdistan was independent they might have a palatable buffer.

If the the Istanbul metro area and Eastern Thrace became a "city state" it would probably be allowed to join.

[TDAS04]

If Albania could just become a bit more developed, and slightly more democratic, it should be a serious candidate for EU membership. It’s already a better democracy than Turkey (low bar, Albania is FAR more democratic, still has some ways to go), and it’s located in its entirety on the European continent.

[Santander]

I think another big issue with Turkey as an EU member is the giant border with syria and iraq: ironically if Kurdistan was independent they might have a palatable buffer.

If the the Istanbul metro area and Eastern Thrace became a "city state" it would probably be allowed to join.

That would immediately become one of the most desirable places to live in the world, but obviously it will never happen.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm all for EU enlargement (which isn't even the subject of this thread, so we should probably move this somewhere else) but not before we get rid of the unanimity rule.

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1716458489566880207?s=12
Bump for obvious reasons lol