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  France: Marriage Rate Drops as Birth Rate Rises
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Grand Mufti of Northern Virginia
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« on: November 23, 2006, 10:05:26 pm »

French marriage rate plunges as population, birth rate rise

By Molly Moore
The Washington Post


PARIS — Sandrine Folet and Lucas Titouh have two children, a stylish Paris apartment and a 15-year-old partnership.

They have no intention of getting married.

"We don't feel the need to get married," said Folet, 36, who has known Titouh, 40, since she was a teenager. "I don't know many people in our age group who are married."

In France, marriage has increasingly fallen out of favor. Growing numbers of couples are choosing to raise children, buy homes and build lives without religious or civil approval of their partnerships. In the past generation, the French marriage rate has plunged more than 30 percent, even as population and birthrates have been rising.

"Marriage doesn't have the same importance as it used to," said France Prioux, who directs research on changing social trends for France's National Institute of Demographic Studies. "It will never become as frequent as it once was."

Marriage is in decline across much of northern Europe, a pattern some sociologists describe as a "soft revolution" in European society, a generational shift away from Old World traditions and institutions toward a greater emphasis on personal independence.

The trend in France is driven by a convergence of social transitions in the demographic and cultural landscapes, including this generation's nearly universal estrangement from religion, especially the Roman Catholic Church; massive migration to urban areas, where young adults are more independent from their families; and a society that has become not only tolerant but supportive of personal choice in lifestyles.

The increase in out-of-wedlock birthrates is more dramatic: In 2005, 59 percent of all first-born French children were born to unwed parents, most by choice, not chance. The numbers were not driven by single mothers, teenage mothers or poor mothers, but by couples from all social and economic backgrounds who chose parenthood without marriage vows.
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KEmperor
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 10:13:55 pm »

Thats bizzare and disturbing.
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Gabu
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 12:48:49 am »


If they're in monogamous, loving relationships, what difference does it make if they have some ceremony at the start of it?
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KEmperor
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 01:19:57 am »


If they're in monogamous, loving relationships, what difference does it make if they have some ceremony at the start of it?

You don't get married because you have to have some ceremony. You get married because you want to.  You want to stand up in front of everybody and tell the world, "This is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with!"

That saying you’ve made a commitment to someone you love is all well and good, but if you’re not willing to yell about it from the tallest mountain top, how the hell good can it be?

It’s not about making the commitment, it’s about celebrating that commitment and wanting to share it with everyone.  If you’re not willing to do that for each other, then maybe it's not worth keeping.

PS:  I'm a bit drunk right now, so that might have been a bit over the top
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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2006, 02:00:11 am »


If they're in monogamous, loving relationships, what difference does it make if they have some ceremony at the start of it?

You don't get married because you have to have some ceremony. You get married because you want to.  You want to stand up in front of everybody and tell the world, "This is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with!"

That saying you’ve made a commitment to someone you love is all well and good, but if you’re not willing to yell about it from the tallest mountain top, how the hell good can it be?

It’s not about making the commitment, it’s about celebrating that commitment and wanting to share it with everyone.  If you’re not willing to do that for each other, then maybe it's not worth keeping.

PS:  I'm a bit drunk right now, so that might have been a bit over the top

Because some people don't like wasting money to yell it from the mountaintop?  Because some people think having kids alone qualifies for that?
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KEmperor
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2006, 02:04:57 am »
« Edited: November 24, 2006, 02:07:53 am by KEmperor »


If they're in monogamous, loving relationships, what difference does it make if they have some ceremony at the start of it?

You don't get married because you have to have some ceremony. You get married because you want to.  You want to stand up in front of everybody and tell the world, "This is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with!"

That saying you’ve made a commitment to someone you love is all well and good, but if you’re not willing to yell about it from the tallest mountain top, how the hell good can it be?

It’s not about making the commitment, it’s about celebrating that commitment and wanting to share it with everyone.  If you’re not willing to do that for each other, then maybe it's not worth keeping.

PS:  I'm a bit drunk right now, so that might have been a bit over the top

Because some people don't like wasting money to yell it from the mountaintop?  Because some people think having kids alone qualifies for that?

And those kids will always be always be wondering why. They’ll be wondering if their parents really love each other, and then they’ll be wondering if they really love them.

And you don't have to have a big fancy wedding.  You can have a simple ceremony with a justice of the peace or something, no frills.
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2006, 02:10:46 am »

And those kids will always be always be wondering why. They’ll be wondering if their parents really love each other, and then they’ll be wondering if they really love them.

My parents were never married purely because they never wanted to.  As a child unaccidentally born out of wedlock, I can attest to the fact that I never paid a second thought to the matter.  It was really not an issue whatsoever.  I knew my parents loved me, and I didn't require them to jump through hoops to prove it.
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Alcon
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2006, 02:34:41 am »

And those kids will always be always be wondering why. They’ll be wondering if their parents really love each other, and then they’ll be wondering if they really love them.

And you don't have to have a big fancy wedding.  You can have a simple ceremony with a justice of the peace or something, no frills.

Do you know anyone who feels this way?  All of those I know with unmarried couples don't care about this at all.  On a day-by-day basis, it just doesn't matter.  And why in the world would it make them question whether their parents love them?  With divorce rates what they are, it doesn't seem to mean all that much anyway.
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 02:55:58 am »
« Edited: November 24, 2006, 02:59:01 am by KEmperor »

And those kids will always be always be wondering why. They’ll be wondering if their parents really love each other, and then they’ll be wondering if they really love them.

And you don't have to have a big fancy wedding.  You can have a simple ceremony with a justice of the peace or something, no frills.

Do you know anyone who feels this way?  All of those I know with unmarried couples don't care about this at all.  On a day-by-day basis, it just doesn't matter.  And why in the world would it make them question whether their parents love them?  With divorce rates what they are, it doesn't seem to mean all that much anyway.

There is a broad body of social and legal research that shows marriage is the best structure for the successful raising of children. A child that grows up out of wedlock has a greater chance of experiencing problems in psychological development, health, school performance, even in the quality of future relationships. Marriage may not be the perfect solution for everyone. But when it comes to raising children, it certainly is the least imperfect of all available family structures.
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Alcon
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 02:58:46 am »

Research suggests such homes provide less stability than ones with legal bonds.

1. Where is this research?
2. Did this distinguished stable, long-term unmarried couples from just-plain-unmarried couples?
3. What provides causation, as opposed to correlation, here?
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Gabu
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2006, 03:25:38 am »

There is a broad body of social and legal research that shows marriage is the best structure for the successful raising of children. A child that grows up out of wedlock has a greater chance of experiencing problems in psychological development, health, school performance, even in the quality of future relationships. Marriage may not be the perfect solution for everyone. But when it comes to raising children, it certainly is the least imperfect of all available family structures.

Has it been shown that this is due solely to marriage, or due to the type of relationship that tends to lead to marriage (in North America, given that I suspect that these studies were mostly taken there)?

If you have two people in a horribly dysfunctional relationship, having them get married is not going to make their relationship any better, and if you have two people in a loving, monogamous relationship, the fact that they're not married does not make their relationship any worse.  It seems to me that marriage would be more an effect of being in a loving, monogamous relationship rather than a cause of such a thing.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2006, 03:29:33 am »


Not really. Lets have a look at the US and see whats disturbing:

Birth rate at 14.0 and steadily decreasing, reaching the level of France. Death Rate about stable. 

Marriage Rate = 7.5 per 1000 inhabitants in 2005 = LOWEST ever recorded in the US together with 2003.

Divorce Rate = 3.6 per 1000 = also lowest ever, BUT this means nearly EVERY SECOND marriage ends up in divorce, which puts the US in the front globally together with Sweden.

The most funny and really disturbing and hypocritical fact is, that the BIBLE-BELT-states like TN, AR, MS etc. have the HIGHEST divorce rates in the US, with the exception of Nevada, while the lowest rates can be found in New England states like Massachusetts.

Another DISTURBING fact: in 1970 36% of young US males were never married, in 2004 this number stands at 86%. For women it was 55% in 1970 and 75% in 2004.

in 1980 18% of all new-born US-children were born to mothers not married, in 2005 it grew to 37% of all births.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0110389.html

Statistics for the EU (2005) can be found here:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-NK-06-016/EN/KS-NK-06-016-EN.PDF
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 03:34:27 am »

The funniest thing about the divorce rate is that Massachusetts still has the lowest divorce rate per capita despite that they are the only state with gay marriage.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 10:14:48 am »

Hmm, that's odd.  Some people aren't the marrying type, I guess, which I find odd, but eh.  Maybe it has to do with the fanatically secular attitude of France (i.e. in order to differentiate themselves from the only marrying, religious part of their country, the Muslims, they aren't marrying, as if to push their point that they are superior to the Muslims)


Not really. Lets have a look at the US and see whats disturbing:

Birth rate at 14.0 and steadily decreasing, reaching the level of France. Death Rate about stable. 

Marriage Rate = 7.5 per 1000 inhabitants in 2005 = LOWEST ever recorded in the US together with 2003.

Divorce Rate = 3.6 per 1000 = also lowest ever, BUT this means nearly EVERY SECOND marriage ends up in divorce, which puts the US in the front globally together with Sweden.

These numbers are pretty highly skewed by serial monogamists.  A majority of people are in monogamous marriages, it's just that a few people go crazy and marry and divorce ever few days Tongue

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Define 'young males' and 'young females'.  Besides, how is that even disturbing?  People are waiting longer to get married, which is a good thing, so they don't saddle their marriage immediately with debt.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2006, 10:17:33 am »

while the lowest rates can be found in New England states like Massachusetts.

New England is heavily Catholic
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Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2006, 12:01:41 pm »

I 100% agree with KEmperor.  Children should be raised in stable homes and a part of that stability is a legal relationship between a mother and a father.  I wish so-called "social conservatives" would get off the gay marriage kick and start working on how straight people have been tearing families apart for years now.
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Gabu
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2006, 02:31:34 pm »


I fully agree.

and a part of that stability is a legal relationship between a mother and a father.

But this part I don't think is necessarily true.  Simply getting two people to marry is not going to make their relationship any more stable.  What we really need to focus on is why so many relationships go sour.
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