Confederate States

[12th Doctor]

2) Failure to take advantage of the Second Manassas Union collapse. They could have devastated the AoP at Chantilly.

That's a negative.  Pope's command was not the Army of the Potomac, it was the Army of Virginia, a smaller command of about 50,000 men.  Lee's whole objective in fighting Second Manassas was to annihilate Pope's command before it could link up with the 90,000 man Army of the Potomac which was still in Washington.  McClellan was still in command.  They teach in school, however, that McClellan was relived in favor of Pope and then McClellan came back, because that is easier to understand, though quite inaccurate.

[12th Doctor]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

[??????????]

2) Failure to take advantage of the Second Manassas Union collapse. They could have devastated the AoP at Chantilly.

That's a negative.  Pope's command was not the Army of the Potomac, it was the Army of Virginia, a smaller command of about 50,000 men.  Lee's whole objective in fighting Second Manassas was to annihilate Pope's command before it could link up with the 90,000 man Army of the Potomac which was still in Washington.  McClellan was still in command.  They teach in school, however, that McClellan was relived in favor of Pope and then McClellan came back, because that is easier to understand, though quite inaccurate.

Sorry my memory is getting rusty. sigh You are correct.

[12th Doctor]

2) Failure to take advantage of the Second Manassas Union collapse. They could have devastated the AoP at Chantilly.

That's a negative.  Pope's command was not the Army of the Potomac, it was the Army of Virginia, a smaller command of about 50,000 men.  Lee's whole objective in fighting Second Manassas was to annihilate Pope's command before it could link up with the 90,000 man Army of the Potomac which was still in Washington.  McClellan was still in command.  They teach in school, however, that McClellan was relived in favor of Pope and then McClellan came back, because that is easier to understand, though quite inaccurate.

Sorry my memory is getting rusty. sigh You are correct.

Quite alright ol' chum.  

[??????????]

4- Likely result is the Union pulls back and seeks battle elsewhere.

Yep! Rock Creek running along the MD/PA border.

[ATFFL]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

North Anna would have turned the Union back for a while.  Lee would have had to avoid conflict with the resurgent Union over the coming months as the next wave of enlistments arrived.

[12th Doctor]

4- Likely result is the Union pulls back and seeks battle elsewhere.

Yep! Rock Creek running along the MD/PA border.

Sorry to contradict you again, but I thought that Meade's Orders were to pull back to Pipe Creek.

[12th Doctor]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

North Anna would have turned the Union back for a while.  Lee would have had to avoid conflict with the resurgent Union over the coming months as the next wave of enlistments arrived.

Grant's forces were already wearing thin.  At Cold Harbor (just after North Anna) they already had to pluck the "Band-box" regiments from D.C.

[??????????]

4- Likely result is the Union pulls back and seeks battle elsewhere.

Yep! Rock Creek running along the MD/PA border.

Sorry to contradict you again, but I thought that Meade's Orders were to pull back to Pipe Creek.

I believe it was actually both.

[ATFFL]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

North Anna would have turned the Union back for a while.  Lee would have had to avoid conflict with the resurgent Union over the coming months as the next wave of enlistments arrived.

Grant's forces were already wearing thin.  At Cold Harbor (just after North Anna) they already had to pluck the "Band-box" regiments from D.C.

But the next wave of draftees were due soon, as in a matter of weeks.  That is why Lee felt the need to strike, the Union was going to get stronger while Lee was looking at no more reinforcements, the Confederacy was nearly bled white.

[12th Doctor]

4- Likely result is the Union pulls back and seeks battle elsewhere.

Yep! Rock Creek running along the MD/PA border.

Sorry to contradict you again, but I thought that Meade's Orders were to pull back to Pipe Creek.

I believe it was actually both.

(shrug) probably.   Funny thing, I bet if newbies stumbled into here, they would think that we must be 3 Ph.D's talking.  

[12th Doctor]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

North Anna would have turned the Union back for a while.  Lee would have had to avoid conflict with the resurgent Union over the coming months as the next wave of enlistments arrived.

Grant's forces were already wearing thin.  At Cold Harbor (just after North Anna) they already had to pluck the "Band-box" regiments from D.C.

But the next wave of draftees were due soon, as in a matter of weeks.  That is why Lee felt the need to strike, the Union was going to get stronger while Lee was looking at no more reinforcements, the Confederacy was nearly bled white.

Oh, of course.  But in real life, when they came, Grant was very lucky, because they were settling down and they wouldn't have to march or perform any complex manuvers.  In the open field, Lee could have taken advantage of these gree units.

[ATFFL]

4- Likely result is the Union pulls back and seeks battle elsewhere.

Yep! Rock Creek running along the MD/PA border.

Sorry to contradict you again, but I thought that Meade's Orders were to pull back to Pipe Creek.

I believe it was actually both.

(shrug) probably.   Funny thing, I bet if newbies stumbled into here, they would think that we must be 3 Ph.D's talking.  

You're not?


Seriously, we are far too brief for Ph.Ds.

[12th Doctor]

4- Likely result is the Union pulls back and seeks battle elsewhere.

Yep! Rock Creek running along the MD/PA border.

Sorry to contradict you again, but I thought that Meade's Orders were to pull back to Pipe Creek.

I believe it was actually both.

(shrug) probably.   Funny thing, I bet if newbies stumbled into here, they would think that we must be 3 Ph.D's talking.  

You're not?

<G>

hahaha  Your such a comedian.  

[12th Doctor]

4- Likely result is the Union pulls back and seeks battle elsewhere.

Yep! Rock Creek running along the MD/PA border.

Sorry to contradict you again, but I thought that Meade's Orders were to pull back to Pipe Creek.

I believe it was actually both.

(shrug) probably.   Funny thing, I bet if newbies stumbled into here, they would think that we must be 3 Ph.D's talking.  

You're not?


Seriously, we are far too brief for Ph.Ds.

True, that just means we acctually know what we are talking about, though.

[ATFFL]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

North Anna would have turned the Union back for a while.  Lee would have had to avoid conflict with the resurgent Union over the coming months as the next wave of enlistments arrived.

Grant's forces were already wearing thin.  At Cold Harbor (just after North Anna) they already had to pluck the "Band-box" regiments from D.C.

But the next wave of draftees were due soon, as in a matter of weeks.  That is why Lee felt the need to strike, the Union was going to get stronger while Lee was looking at no more reinforcements, the Confederacy was nearly bled white.

Oh, of course.  But in real life, when they came, Grant was very lucky, because they were settling down and they wouldn't have to march or perform any complex manuvers.  In the open field, Lee could have taken advantage of these gree units.

Grant would have had to pull back to them, but Lee would not have risked crossing into the North again.  

[12th Doctor]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

North Anna would have turned the Union back for a while.  Lee would have had to avoid conflict with the resurgent Union over the coming months as the next wave of enlistments arrived.

Grant's forces were already wearing thin.  At Cold Harbor (just after North Anna) they already had to pluck the "Band-box" regiments from D.C.

But the next wave of draftees were due soon, as in a matter of weeks.  That is why Lee felt the need to strike, the Union was going to get stronger while Lee was looking at no more reinforcements, the Confederacy was nearly bled white.

Oh, of course.  But in real life, when they came, Grant was very lucky, because they were settling down and they wouldn't have to march or perform any complex manuvers.  In the open field, Lee could have taken advantage of these gree units.

Grant would have had to pull back to them, but Lee would not have risked crossing into the North again.  

True, but we must also ponder what the casulty figures would have been for the Federals if Lee had been sucessful at North Anna.  We are talking about the possible destruction of an entire Corps (V).  The would have devistated the Federal command as that was nearly a quarter of the AoP.  If that had happened, Grant would almost certainly have had to retreat north to protect his supply train, which was already percariously possitioned.  If you recall, Grant had moved it into a vulnerable possition to draw Lee out of Cold Harbor.  Lee didn't take the bait, but Grant would have been in a very uncomfortable possition had Lee won.

[??????????]

The reason I say Rock creek is because I know someone that lives on the banks and a sign is up by their house that says it's was a fallback point. And if you want to see Civil War History look at my wifes family tree!! Good grief she has almost 70 CSA ancestors. Trederick what part of NC are you from? My wifes family is from the Wilson area. Waddells and Jones (which one? lol). They are tobacco farmers, though not so much anymore. One of her ancestors owned almost 800 slaves in the Orangeburg district of SC.

[ATFFL]

7) The death blow for the confederate army will come as a shock to some here. The Battle of Five Forks. Yes Yes I know it happened in April '65 but the Confederate lines were actually holding up well and a organized retreat was in the works. The collapse of this critical juncture doomed the Confederacy. (Thanks to a shad bake)

Ehhh, I would say that the Confederates last chance to win the war was the Battle of North Anna.  If they had carried out Lee's plans and sucessfully split the Federals into two groups and fought them while they were deployed piecemeal, they could have won an astunding victory against Grant just before the election.

North Anna would have turned the Union back for a while.  Lee would have had to avoid conflict with the resurgent Union over the coming months as the next wave of enlistments arrived.

Grant's forces were already wearing thin.  At Cold Harbor (just after North Anna) they already had to pluck the "Band-box" regiments from D.C.

But the next wave of draftees were due soon, as in a matter of weeks.  That is why Lee felt the need to strike, the Union was going to get stronger while Lee was looking at no more reinforcements, the Confederacy was nearly bled white.

Oh, of course.  But in real life, when they came, Grant was very lucky, because they were settling down and they wouldn't have to march or perform any complex manuvers.  In the open field, Lee could have taken advantage of these gree units.

Grant would have had to pull back to them, but Lee would not have risked crossing into the North again.  

True, but we must also ponder what the casulty figures would have been for the Federals if Lee had been sucessful at North Anna.  We are talking about the possible destruction of an entire Corps (V).  The would have devistated the Federal command as that was nearly a quarter of the AoP.  If that had happened, Grant would almost certainly have had to retreat north to protect his supply train, which was already percariously possitioned.  If you recall, Grant had moved it into a vulnerable possition to draw Lee out of Cold Harbor.  Lee didn't take the bait, but Grant would have been in a very uncomfortable possition had Lee won.

This is the civil war, whole Coprps do not go away that quickly.  He could have devastated the Corp, but 60-70% would have gotten away.  They did have an avenue of retreat, but would have been cut of ffromt the main line.  Would still have been a heavy blow.

Casualties would have likely been 20-30% for the Federals, massive but not enough to disintegrate the force.

It is also possible the men would have failed Lee.  The southerners were not well drilled and the complex plan might have fallen apart, it happened more than once to the Cnfederates.

[??????????]

I disagree. Both sides were equally drilled. The problem was the flow of new recruits on both sides caused discipline problems. Gilliams tactics were FAR superior to Hardees (what a lousy book). I have read both and they are very interesting.

[12th Doctor]

The reason I say Rock creek is because I know someone that lives on the banks and a sign is up by their house that says it's was a fallback point. And if you want to see Civil War History look at my wifes family tree!! Good grief she has almost 70 CSA ancestors. Trederick what part of NC are you from? My wifes family is from the Wilson area. Waddells and Jones (which one? lol). They are tobacco farmers, though not so much anymore. One of her ancestors owned almost 800 slaves in the Orangeburg district of SC.

I'm sure that I mentioned this before, but my family comes from Washington, NC and the surrounding area.  The Rumley's and the Hall's sent 31 boys off to war, only three came back without being at least severely wounded.

[12th Doctor]

This is the civil war, whole Coprps do not go away that quickly.  He could have devastated the Corp, but 60-70% would have gotten away.  They did have an avenue of retreat, but would have been cut of ffromt the main line.  Would still have been a heavy blow.

Casualties would have likely been 20-30% for the Federals, massive but not enough to disintegrate the force.

It is also possible the men would have failed Lee.  The southerners were not well drilled and the complex plan might have fallen apart, it happened more than once to the Cnfederates.

Well, thats what I meant when I said "destroyed".  But you also asume that they would have been able to preserve order and make an orderly retreat, I doubt that.  Civil War Units did not react well in general when they were nearly totally cut-off.  Pandamonium would have ensued.  Federal soldier would have disgarded much of their arms and equipment to swim accross the river.  After such an event, I think that only about 40% of those who went into battle would have been ready to fight the next day or even the next week (or of course, never again for those killed, wounded or captured).

[12th Doctor]

I disagree. Both sides were equally drilled. The problem was the flow of new recruits on both sides caused discipline problems. Gilliams tactics were FAR superior to Hardees (what a lousy book). I have read both and they are very interesting.

Hardee would have done a better job than Hood, whether his book sucks or not.

For one thing, I doubt that Hardee would have got half the Confederate command killed in one battle and for another, Hardee wouldn't have been stoned out on opium half the time.

[ATFFL]

The reason I say Rock creek is because I know someone that lives on the banks and a sign is up by their house that says it's was a fallback point. And if you want to see Civil War History look at my wifes family tree!! Good grief she has almost 70 CSA ancestors. Trederick what part of NC are you from? My wifes family is from the Wilson area. Waddells and Jones (which one? lol). They are tobacco farmers, though not so much anymore. One of her ancestors owned almost 800 slaves in the Orangeburg district of SC.

Originally from Long Island, currently living in Raleigh.

All of my family came over post civil war.

[??????????]

The reason I say Rock creek is because I know someone that lives on the banks and a sign is up by their house that says it's was a fallback point. And if you want to see Civil War History look at my wifes family tree!! Good grief she has almost 70 CSA ancestors. Trederick what part of NC are you from? My wifes family is from the Wilson area. Waddells and Jones (which one? lol). They are tobacco farmers, though not so much anymore. One of her ancestors owned almost 800 slaves in the Orangeburg district of SC.

Originally from Long Island, currently living in Raleigh.

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