Vice-Presidential Debate Winner

[The Duke]

"There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, an there never will be under a Ford administration." -Gerald Ford, in 1980, an election he lost

Actually it was 1976. Ford was attempting to say that the Eastern Europeans had hope of overcoming the Soviets. It came out wrong, so the moderator gave him a chance to correct himself - but it still came out wrong.

Had he not said that, he likely would have won that election.

Sorry, its a typo.  I accidentally wrote 1980 for both quotes.  Its fixed now.

[© tweed]

Had he not said that, he likely would have won that election.

Agreed

[Wakie]

And Edwards will win easily. How the general public views Edwards and Cheney:

I wonder if Bush will bring up the article in Rolling Stone where Kerry used similar language?

If he does bring it up he'll look like an idiot.  The right-wingers really tried to spin that one and said it was oh so terrible.  The left-wingers said "eh, so what" and now are howling at the hypocrisy of Cheney.

[Smash255]

And Edwards will win easily. How the general public views Edwards and Cheney:

I wonder if Bush will bring up the article in Rolling Stone where Kerry used similar language?

If he does bring it up he'll look like an idiot.  The right-wingers really tried to spin that one and said it was oh so terrible.  The left-wingers said "eh, so what" and now are howling at the hypocrisy of Cheney.

Their is also a differnece between saying someone f'd something up and saying F off to someone,  For example using a football analogy since I'm a Diehard Giants fan.  The Giant s OLine was awful last year if I were to say the Giants O Line F'd up at blocking, it maybe a little harsh, but its a far cry from telling the entire Giants O Line to go F themselves to their faces

[The Duke]

You forgot one other important difference, Smash.

Kerry said  on the record in an interview, knowing everyone would see it in print.  Cheney said  off the record, with no reporters to print it.

[Alfie]

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(Which makes it even scummier!)


There you go again!  Making assumptions, making excuses.  Gosh, don't you tire of that crap?

1.  John Kerry said it in an interview with an adult magazine, one with which you are most obviously unfamiliar -- sort of hip, the type of magazine men read -- a guys mag, with an extra dose of testosterone.  But, like I said, it ain't your (pinky UP) "cup of tea", as it were.

2.  John Kerry didn't say it in anger.  John Kerry didn't lose his cool, and come across like he was having a nervous breakdown --you know, like Cheney did.

3.  John Kerry didn't attack a United States Senator.  Cheney did, you know.  Some think that's cool: it ain't -- it's offensive.  Queenie, yes, manly, well sh**t no!  B!tchy, I guess is the word, wouldn't you say?

4.  John Kerry didn't gloat afterwards, like that wuss Cheney Chicken Hawk did.  No, Kerry is more of a man than THAT!  Cheney, Lady in Waiting, rationalized his grotesque actions, and people like you bought into them.  Sad, really: no manners at home?

That, in brief, is the difference.


- Alfie

[Blue Rectangle]

4.  John Kerry didn't gloat afterwards, like that wuss Cheney Chicken Hawk did.  
- Alfie

Alfie, you still have offered no defense of why Cheney is a "Chicken Hawk" in your book and Edwards isn't.  For the sake of what little credibility you have left, please refrain from using that slur until you can explain your hypocrisy.

[Alfie]

4.  John Kerry didn't gloat afterwards, like that wuss Cheney Chicken Hawk did.  
- Alfie

Alfie, you still have offered no defense of why Cheney is a "Chicken Hawk" in your book and Edwards isn't.  For the sake of what little credibility you have left, please refrain from using that slur until you can explain your hypocrisy.

Didn't you get the memo?  I asked that you provide cites with URLs, and I'd review the data.  And I will, and if the chips come down against Edwards, I'll absolutely agree to denounce his feathered status.  But I can't work with snips.

Thanks.

- Alfie

[The Duke]

Alfie,

1. The only adult magazine I read is Playboy.  Kerry gave his interview to Rolling Stone, which is not very hip at all.  It is a cinergy machine that gives gloss-over interviews to rock stars, giving themselves a scoop and the rocker a free piece of hype.  Being the embodiment of all that is wrong with commercialism isn't hip.  I do have one finger up right now, but it isn't the pinky.  Even so, for a liberal your a pretty big homophobe.  I don't care for homophobes, so  off.

2. If you have a URL that describeswhat the intonation of Cheney's and then Kerry's voice was when the dropped their repsective f-bombs, show it to us.  And make it a reliable source.  Until then, I will have to assume that Cheney was his usual robotic self, said it in passing, and walked away, which seems far more likely at this time.  I will also assume that John Kerry was his normal robotic self, and just happenned to drop an f-bomb in conversation.  As you would say, show me the URL.  Until then,  off.

3. Your right, Kerry instead attacked the US President.  And again with the anti-gay slurs.  I refer you to the opinion expressed in #1, as well as to the suggestion of how a person can spend their free time:  off.

4. Again, you demand URLs of everyone but yourself.  Show me the URL of Cheney gloating.  My suggestion for the first site you to try is off.com.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You forgot one other important difference, Smash.

Kerry said  on the record in an interview, knowing everyone would see it in print.  Cheney said  off the record, with no reporters to print it.

magazine interviews are often edited.

but I really don't care. I would still vote for Kerry if he had sex with 10 prostitutes on live television, and if Cheney did the same it wouldn't lower my opinion of him any more, mainly because it can't go any lower.

[Alfie]

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Homophobe?  One, I don't believe there are many people truly, and in a clinical sense, "homophobic".  Two,  I'm Gay.

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I'll try my best!  

Let us recall the two instances -- a sort of "compare and contrast", if you will allow:

-  Kerry was speaking to a reporter, and he said the Big F.  
-  Cheney was on the Senate floor, and told a political nemisis to "F yourself".

What are the similarities between the two statements?

1.  Both men said "F"
2.  Both should know better.


What are the differences between the two statements?

1.  Cheney said it in anger; Kerry said it in a conversational setting.
2.  Cheney directed his words in anger at a United States Senator; Kerry said "F" in a descriptive manner to a reporter who was privately interviewing the candidate.
3.  Cheney's statement was unwelcome by the Senator; Kerry made a descriptive comment, and the reporter was not offended -- it wasn't directed at the reporters, nor was it an attack directed to Bush.
4.  Cheney said it in the least likely place: the floor of the United States Senate; Kerry said it in an office.
5.  Cheney's words were intended to hurt.  People don't say "go f yourself to be charming; Kerry used the "F" word for effect.


Now, that said.  Let’s review exactly what Kerry told Rolling Stone:


"Will Dana asks Kerry; "Did you feel you were blindsided by Dean's success?"

Kerry: "Well, not blindsided. I mean, when I voted for the war, I voted for what I thought was best for the country. Did I expect Howard Dean to go off to the left and say, "I'm against everything"? Sure. Did I expect George Bush to f*** it up as badly as he did? I don't think anybody did."


Here's what Cheney said to Senator Leahy;

" yourself"

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How's the horse's mouth?  Is the transcript from Cheney's chat with Fox acceptable?


Cheney gave an interview with a giggling guy at Fox. Here's what Cheney said.  URL at footer:


"CAVUTO: All right. Sir, a couple of little issues I want settled, or maybe to get the real skinny on. One was this blowout you had the other day with Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont. What happened?

CHENEY: Well, we — I guess you could say we had a little floor debate in the United States Senate.

CAVUTO: I heard it was more than a debate.

CHENEY: Well, it was — I expressed myself rather forcefully, felt better after I had done it.

CAVUTO: All right. Now, did you use the "F" word?

CHENEY: That's not the kind of language I usually use.

CAVUTO: All right, because the reports were that you did.

CHENEY: Yes, that's not the kind of language I ordinarily use. But...

CAVUTO: What did you tell him?

CHENEY: I expressed my dissatisfaction for Senator Leahy.

CAVUTO: Over his comments about you and Halliburton?

CHENEY: No. It was partly that. It was partly — also, it had to do with — he is the kind of individual who will make those kinds of charges and then come after you as though he's your best friend. And I expressed, in no uncertain terms, my views of the — of his conduct and walked away.

CAVUTO: Did you curse at him?

CHENEY: Probably.

(LAUGHTER)

CAVUTO: Do you have any regrets?

CHENEY: No. I said it, and I felt that...
(CROSSTALK)

…CAVUTO: What was reaction from the crowd?

CHENEY: Well, I think that a lot of my colleagues felt that what I had said badly needed to be said, that it was long overdue.

CAVUTO: Pretty feisty guy, aren't you?

CHENEY: Well, I'm usually fairly calm (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CAVUTO: Your wife's just a few feet away.

CHENEY: And ordinarily I don't express myself in strong terms. But I thought it was appropriate here.[/red]

Fox interview with Cheney

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(Correction: it's "you're right", or (I prefer) "you are right" -- as in being correct, not "your", as in possessive pronoun "your", as in ownership.  Sorry.  Grammar is personal with me.  I hope you will, in future, correct me, should I ever prove unfaithful to the English language?)

See above.

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Now, now.  Mind your manners, no need to act-out or ACT-UPset[/b] -- no need to follow the poor example of the "Vice" president.  See above.

BTW, is it me?  I don't think Lon Cheney looks at all well.  This photo is from 24 June 04.






- Alfie

[The Duke]

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Homophobe?  One, I don't believe there are many people truly, and in a clinical sense, "homophobic".  Two, I'm Gay.

And such a credit to you community, no?  I'm sure all your gay friends will love your implication that being gay is somehow morally wrong or a weakness.  Isn't it interesting how one minute you are launching an anti-gay slur, and the next you defend yourself with "I can't hate gays, I am gay!"  Does anyone else smell a rat in this defense?

What are the differences between the two statements?

1.  Cheney said it in anger; Kerry said it in a conversational setting.
2.  Cheney directed his words in anger at a United States Senator; Kerry said "F" in a descriptive manner to a reporter who was privately interviewing the candidate.
3.  Cheney's statement was unwelcome by the Senator; Kerry made a descriptive comment, and the reporter was not offended -- it wasn't directed at the reporters, nor was it an attack directed to Bush.
4.  Cheney said it in the least likely place: the floor of the United States Senate; Kerry said it in an office.
5.  Cheney's words were intended to hurt.  People don't say "go f yourself to be charming; Kerry used the "F" word for effect.

1. Excuse me, but didn't I already ask for some evidence on what the intonation in Cheney's voice was?  Yes, I did.  Instead, you provide a link that has nothing to do with intonation in the voice, but rather a text of the Cheney interview that I already saw when it first aired, and the partial text of a Kerry interview with Rolling Stone.  There is no indication of Kerry's demeanor, since his interview was in print.  During the whole of the other interview, Cheney remains perfectly calm.  I suppose you highlighted in red the part that you think proves that Cheney was proud and gloating, but if you had read a bit more closely, you'd see that this is not a gloat but a justification of one's actions.  Oh, you didn't notice that?  With skills like this, it’s a real wonder that you're here, posting barely discernable attacks on public officials instead of doing police detective work.

2. Was Cheney angry?  Probably.  Was Kerry?  Probably.  You don't drop f-bombs in everyday descriptive conversation.  But again, you don't know their state of mind, do you?  But that doesn't stop you from rampantly speculating!  And even if they were angry, you have no actual evidence that either one was letting those feelings show when they spoke.  Its called a poker face.

3. Uh, yeah, stupid, it was directed at Bush.  It was his assessment of Bush's performance, so it pretty damn well directed at him.

4. So the likelihood that you will hear an f-bomb affects its appropriateness?  I think not.  A more cogent analysis of appropriateness would be that because Kerry's comment was made on the record, it was worse, while Cheney's was in private conversation.  I use the f-bomb in private conversation; I don't do it at my work when I'm on the phone to constituents or reporters.

5. I wouldn't imagine that people often use the f-bomb to charm.  I am well aware that Kerry instead used it for effect.  The question is not the intent but the appropriateness of a Presidential candidate cursing in an on the record interview.  Duh.

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(Correction: it's "you're right", or (I prefer) "you are right" -- as in being correct, not "your", as in possessive pronoun "your", as in ownership.  Sorry.  Grammar is personal with me.  I hope you will, in future, correct me, should I ever prove unfaithful to the English language?)

See above.

Oh, you would?  I'd be glad to help.  Here is a list of words you have misspelled during this thread:

nemisis- Should be "nemesis" (page 3 of thread)
digusting- Should be "disgusting" (page 1 of thread)
ain't- Of course, ain't is not a real word, but rather a vulgarism.  A vulgarism is a type of slang used in common speech but is not to be used in writing. (page 3 of thread)

I guess grammar really is important to you.  You know, the rest of the people on this board are good enough debaters that they don't have to resort to calling out typos.

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Now, now.  Mind your manners, no need to act-out or ACT-UPset[/b] -- no need to follow the poor example of the "Vice" president.  See above.

BTW, is it me?  I don't think Lon Cheney looks at all well.  This photo is from 24 June 04.



- Alfie

Fine.  Again with the anti-gay slurs.  But where is the evidence that your view has any merit at all?

As for Lon Cheney,

He's got two words for you.  Can you guess what they are?

Alfie,

You just got served.

[??????????]

John Ford takes down another one.