Homeschooled girl in Germany taken from family

[Padfoot]

They violate the law by being here. end of story.

So, do you support imprisonment of marijuana users?

he illegal immigration law is a good idea banning marijuana isn't.

Could we keep the discussion on the topic at hand which would be the legality of homeschooling in Germany in case you guys forgot.  I don't mean to be rude but marijuana and illegal immigration have little if anything to do with what is actually being debated here.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Unlike Old Europe, I actually have heard of cases like that before, though.

I was talking about the specific case.

I googled it before I posted it. Here's another source:
http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen_en.html

Yes, this source is also quoted in this "article" from WorldNetDaily... actually it seems that WorldNetDaily has based its story on the information from that site and similar websites/organizations.

Frankly, I never heard about a "Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit" before. Judging from the information they give about themselves they are most likely one of those fringe evangelical pressure groups advocating homeschooling. So, it isn't exactly the most objective source either.

As Colin Wixted pointed out, you probably won't find a report about that particular case in German/European/American mainstream media (despite WorldNetDaily's claim that this case "has been in the headlines ever since the beginning of this month"... but they're probably refering to their own headlines here).

My take is that this might be based on a true story, but that the facts are highly exaggerated and distorted by these pressure groups in order to use it for their goals... and WorldNetDaily has simply adopted the point of view of those groups. Well, I guess they weren't really bothered to check whether these reports are true or not anyway.

A half-truth is always better than a lie. So take a few bits of truth and mix it with some lies and people will swallow it easier.

[Gustaf]

Well, Swedish media is constantly reporting about crazy bible-thumping Americans doing crazy things and about how Bush is an idiot, so I guess it evens out.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Personal sidenote: It's amazing how every time Germany or other European countries tends to differ from America on a specific issue (no homeschooling in Germany for example), it's either seen as a sign of "fascism", "socialism" or "communism".

We are at least trying to limit our baseless accusations towards the United States in that way that you are a people of imperialist warmongers, without permanently switching the ideology you are being accused of.

[minionofmidas]

If WorldNetDaily is so upset about illegal immigrants breaking the law when it comes to the US, why don't they hold the same standard in this case?

Because in this case they disagree with the law. Duh.

lol ^^^^^^^

Pointing out the hypocrisy, fool, because persons such as yourself (and WorldNetDaily) have no rationale for deporting all illegal immigrants other than "THEY BROKE THE LAW!!111"

Actually, I have. Don't strawman me. My rationale for wanting to deport illegal immigrants is that I don't want to be around them.

The obvious remedy is to move to a country without illegal immigrants, such as Myanmar or North Korea.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The obvious remedy is to stop tolerating illegal immigration. What makes the west so undeserving that western nations can't even guard their own borders?

[minionofmidas]

The obvious remedy is to stop tolerating illegal immigration.

That's beyond the powers of the single individual.
I say if he doesn't like it here, he should lump it.
(Note: there aren't all that very many illegal immigrants in the American sense - ie undocumented ones that the government doesn't know about - in Europe, actually. Although there are some, of course.)

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

You can close the border. And since I don't see the globalized world as a godo thing...

[minionofmidas]

You can close the border.

We have. With inevitable results: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/810210.stm

 

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Simple execute anyone in the country illegally.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You can close the border.

We have. With inevitable results: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/810210.stm

 

Yeah, I remember that. Ghastly.

[Reignman]

Fascism

[Verily]

Simple execute anyone in the country illegally.

So much care and love for your fellow man. Just not lest ye be judged.

[TheWildCard]

Personal sidenote: It's amazing how every time Germany or other European countries tends to differ from America on a specific issue (no homeschooling in Germany for example), it's either seen as a sign of "fascism", "socialism" or "communism".

We are at least trying to limit our baseless accusations towards the United States in that way that you are a people of imperialist warmongers, without permanently switching the ideology you are being accused of.

Hah, I'm not too sure about that to be honest.

At any rate, I'll probably look into this some. My family used to be a member of the HSLDA which is mentioned in the article. The fact that homeschooling is illegal in Germany is pretty authoritarian so I did vote fascist.

[Michael Z]

I think it's telling that the most level-headed and rational opinions put forward in this thread come from the German-based posters.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The fact that homeschooling is illegal in Germany is pretty authoritarian so I did vote fascist.

Yeah, but that's just considered "normal" in Germany. Asking an German why homeschooling is illegal is almost the same as if you ask him why driving drunk is illegal.

The most probable answers would be:
1) Well, it would be a pretty stupid idea to allow it, wouldn't it?
2) Are you insane?
3) What the hell is "homeschooling"?

And don't expect to have the ban on homeschooling be lifted in the next few decades. No (mainstream) party would gain an advantage by advocating against the ban of homeschooling. The respective political party would perhaps gain between 0.1% and 0.5% of votes... but might even lose more votes than that because of wasting their time with the adoption of a an obscure fringe issue. So, the main problem is: Insufficient demand for homeschooling.


And before the "socialist" or "fascist" culture in Germany is held responsible, keep in mind that we are the country which succesfully resisted any government effort to hold a census since 1987 (!).   The next one is planned for 2012 on a more limited level, we'll see how that one pans out.

Another example which comes to my mind: Perhaps to the immense pleasure of obebo, prostitution is legal here... something that isn't common in the fascist police state of yours. Isn't that pretty authoritarian? No, I guess many Americans would say to a proposal like that: "Well, it would be a pretty stupid idea to allow it, wouldn't it?" or "Are you insane?".

So, it's pretty easy to scream "facism!" every time there's a (cultural-based?) difference between our countries.

[GOP = Terrorists]

Judging from the people I've met who were home schooled it should already be classified as a crime:  nelgect.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Ah, and just to add a few more shades of grey (and perhaps irony)... this is a case which happened (provided it did happen) in Bavaria. That's  the same Bavaria which is governed by the CSU, which is the political party known for its vehement fight for the right  to display the Christian cross in the schoolrooms of public schools... a fight wich was successfully fought so far.

So, if we assume this case is true (I have certain doubts there), christian conservatives are "persecuated" by other christian conservatives here.

[Michael Z]

Ah, and just to add a few more shades of grey (and perhaps irony)... this is a case which happened (provided it did happen) in Bavaria. That's  the same Bavaria which is governed by the CSU, which is the political party known for its vehement fight for the right  to display the Christian cross in the schoolrooms of public schools... a fight wich was successfully fought so far.

So, if we assume this case is true (I have certain doubts there), christian conservatives are "persecuated" by other christian conservatives here.

True. Plus, Bavaria is almost a different country to the rest of Germany.

[David S]

The point of this thread is not to criticize Germany. The point is to criticize excessive government intrusion into the private lives of the people, wherever it occurs. The United States also is guilty of similar intrusions into the lives of its citizens. I post those too whenever I find them.   

[Tender Branson]

The fact that homeschooling is illegal in Germany is pretty authoritarian so I did vote fascist.

Yeah, but that's just considered "normal" in Germany. Asking an German why homeschooling is illegal is almost the same as if you ask him why driving drunk is illegal.

The most probable answers would be:
1) Well, it would be a pretty stupid idea to allow it, wouldn't it?
2) Are you insane?
3) What the hell is "homeschooling"?

True in some way, but not entirely. I agree that it´s considered "normal" by the German and also, in my case, the Austrian population, that students go to public schools. But does it have to be this way ? Not necessarily in my opinion. We could still burn witches and open up KZs. That was thought to be "normal" back then by lots of people. The majority is not always right. I´m not really familiar with this matter, but I did some research lately and found out that a religious couple from Germany who practiced homeschooling for their children had to move to Austria, where homeschooling is legal, because they didn´t want their children to study Darwins Evolution Theory or Sex Education etc. They were persecuted by German State authorities, they were threatended with high fines, coercive detention and child custody deprivation if they don´t put their children into state schools.

Homeschooling in Austria is quite an easy going matter, too easy going as seen by some recent child abuse scandals in the state of Upper Austria. A mother "jailed" her daughters in her house for more than 5 years. They were not allowed to leave the house in that time ... and they were granted homeschooling by the local authorities. But because the law is so lax here, the mother managed to cheat the year end exams all the time or whatever...or the authorities just f****d up.

I therefore think that homeschooling is not a bad idea if certain qualifications of the parents are met and an indiviual exam (based on religious beliefs or whatever) is taken at each year end.

[JSojourner]

If WorldNetDaily is so upset about illegal immigrants breaking the law when it comes to the US, why don't they hold the same standard in this case?

Whirled Nuts Daily is not a reliable source of news by ANY standard.  They make Fox look liberal.

[JSojourner]

Judging from the people I've met who were home schooled it should already be classified as a crime:  nelgect.

I've had extensive contact with the home school movement in Ohio and Indiana.  In Illinois, to a lesser extent.

Of the home school children/families I have met, I would say one in ten could be considered well-adjusted, broadly literate and socially adept.  For most of the HS families, "education" amounts to reading Bible stories about Sodom & Gommorah, studying great literature like "Left Behind" and listening to Focus on the Family to keep up on current events. 

As I said, you can't broad brush everyone.  One family I know does a magnificent job.  While they certainly do put religious values into their home-schooling, they also expose their children to real science (not faux science), the arts and humanities and the complexities of hot issues facing our community and nation.  I wish these good folks were the rule, rather than the exception.

[GOP = Terrorists]

A mother "jailed" her daughters in her house for more than 5 years.

Thats pretty much the point of home schooling. 

[GOP = Terrorists]

I've had extensive contact with the home school movement in Ohio and Indiana.  In Illinois, to a lesser extent.

I've had the same extensive contact with "home schooled" children in Connecticut.

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One in ten is a very generous number. I'd point it more at 1/50 or 1/100 for the child to be academically and socially average in their development.

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Even a broken clock is right twice a day.