English translations of the Bible

[12th Doctor]

KJV.  Easily the best-written.

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius

[12th Doctor]

Even if the King James Version were not a dreadfully bad translation, which is it (they changed a lot of the wording to try to shoehorn it into such a 'poetic' edition) the fact that the meanings of many words in the English language has change so much as to make interpriting it by anyone who is not familiar with these changes difficult, at best and impossible for most.

The meaning of words such as "silly", "wherefore", "censure", "wit" and many, many other words have all changed meaning since the time the KJV was first translated.

It is an all around useless translation.  I use the New American Version.  Every section was translated from the ealiest texts available into an exact translation that doesn't attempt to make the thing sound liek Shakespear.  If I really do desire something with better poetic flow, however, I use the St. Ignatius Catholic text.  It is similar to the KJV, but updated, so the words still have the same meaning as today, and the translation itself is far more faithful.

[12th Doctor]

KJV.  Easily the best-written.

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Hmmm, hadn't realized how old this topic is.  Very well, just for starters Josh, if you would, please give me the meaning of the following phrases from popular literature.

1) "Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

2) "Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"

3) "Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."

4) "He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."

Moreover, would you please tell me what the difference between "you" and "thou" is?

How about the difference between "here", "there", "where" and "hither", "whither" and "thither"?

[12th Doctor]

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

[12th Doctor]

I don't see any reason he would.  I just think he doesn't want to walk into an obvious trap.

Anyone else care to take an honest whack at it, so that way I can get my point accross?

[12th Doctor]

Well, while I am waiting for someone to step-up to the plate, I guess I will get my second point about the KJV out of the way, and that is that the accuracy of the translations themselves is highly questionable.  Fans of the KJV will tell you that the scholars went back and translated it directly from the Greek texts.  Even if we never, historically, that this wasn't true, it would still be a mental stretch, because the Vatican, techincally the Lateran, at this time, held almost all the Greek texts at the time, and we know they didn't give them to the Protestants.

Acctually, the translation that the writters of the KJV came from Erasmus' Greek translations, which have not only been proven to be erroneous in several cases, but also add even another layer to the translation, as those then had to be translated into English (I believe the texts were in Latin, as Erasmus was know to write only in Latin).

Now, add onto that the political motives of those assembling the text.  Many say there weren't any, but one instance make it clear that there was at least one obvious case where this was not so.  Until fairly recently, the KJV had Paul saving "Man is justified through faith alone".  The problem is, Paul never said "alone".  That was something that was added by Luther because thought it "should" be there.  Luther was no scholar, and anyone who went back to the Greek can clearly see it isn't there.  The addition of the word "alone" completely changes the meaning of the text to suit the purposes of Protestants.  That one word means the Catholic Church must be wrong.  If only it were there... but wait, we can just put it there and pretend, right?  Well, that's what they did.

More over, the texts that do "paraphrase" (NAB, NIV) only do so where the passage of time has obscured the meaning of the text so much as to render it ununderstandable by the reader.  In otherwords, when the expanse of culture and language have changed so much that peopel simply won't understand what is being said.

A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version, which must be bastardized because they are written in vernacular.  Well, I seem to recall there was a time when Protestants attacked the Catholic Church for remaining Latin based because the Church supposedly presumed that Latin was a holier language.  What makes clinging to the KJV any different?

[12th Doctor]

A lot of people hold onto the KJV because with all its "formal" language, it just sounds holier than other version

Don't get me started on the notion of "Biblical English"...

Thing is, there is nothing formal about it.  That was vernacular back then.  Just as Latin was the vernacular when the RCC started using it.

[12th Doctor]

Why don't they update for the times/

Because, when they do, Pastor Bob at the First Bible Baptist throws a sh**t fit and claims that Catholics (read anti-Christ) are influencing the good Christians.

[12th Doctor]

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Can you even understand the KJV?

Yes I can understand the KJV, I've been reading since I was born.

Oh can you?  Then why won't you answer my questions?

Sorry, what was your question?

KJV.  Easily the best-written.

Best written.  Worst translation.

I use the New American Catholic Version.

If I want to go for style, I use the St. Ignatius

How is the KJV the worst translation? All of the other versions are nothing but trash... The take out so many thing from the bible.

Hmmm, hadn't realized how old this topic is.  Very well, just for starters Josh, if you would, please give me the meaning of the following phrases from popular literature.

1) "Wherefore art thou Romeo?"

2) "Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"

3) "Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."

4) "He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."

Moreover, would you please tell me what the difference between "you" and "thou" is?

How about the difference between "here", "there", "where" and "hither", "whither" and "thither"?

[12th Doctor]

OK let see...

1)"Wherefore art thou Romeo?"-- Where are you Romeo?
2)"Silly Scotland, for of God's mercy, it has much need"-- That God's mercy is much needed in life, and person is talking to the people of Scotland.
3)"Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement."-- When people make judgement on you, step back and see if the judgement they are making is true, but you don't judge other people because only God can judge others.
4)"He is wise enough to play the fool, and to do so requires a certain wit."-- One who is smart enough to play the role of a fool requires him to be very smart at the game.

1 1/2 out of 4, not bad at all, since most people wouldn't have gotten a single one.

1) No.  "Wherefore" back in that time did not mean "where" at all.  It meant "Why".  She is asking, "Why are you Romeo?"  In other words, "why couldn't you be anyone else".

2) I'll give you half on that one, because your answer didn't hit the point.  The word "silly" didn't start out meaning what it means today.  It started out as the English equivlent to the German "sehlig"(sp) which means "blessed".  So, we have sentences that go "Silly, art thou, Virgin Mary".  If something is "blessed" then it is thought to be "innocent", so the word changed to mean that.  So, when the guy says "Silly Scotland" he is saying "Innocent Scotland".  It then changed to mean helpless, which then came to mean foolish.

3) No.  Censure was not "comdemnation" back then.  To take someone censure meant to "size them up".  So, modern words, what is beign said is "Size each man up (or observe him), but don't talk about it" which is much better advice than what one thinks is being said.

4) Correct.  But wit back then meant, exclusively, knowledge or mind.  Today, of course, it means to be funny in a highbrow kind of way.

You didn't answer the other parts, so I will just go through those.

People think of "thou" as being this formal thing, when in reality, it is nothing of the sort.  "Thou" acctually used to be the 2nd Person Singular in the English language.  "You" was the 2nd person plural.  "You" was also used as the formal singular, in otherwords, when you were talking to someone of a recongnizably higher social station, whereas "Thou" was used in informal situations.  Almost all Indo-European languages make an established distinction between "you" singular (and familiar) and "you" plural (and formal) except Modern English.  For some reason (I have a theory) "thou" fell out of the language and was taken over by "you".  People today try to compensate for the loss with "yous", "yinz" and "y'all".

As for here, there and where and hither, thither and whither:

"Here" was only used to describe where you were, right now.  If you wanted someone to come to you, you would say "come hither".  "There" was only to describe the location of a place.  If you wanted someone to "go there" you would say "go thither".  Same idea with "whither".

The point I am trying to make is that, it isn't just bad translation that murks the KJV.  The KJV is rife with these little examples of places where the language has changed.  Not understanding those changes can completely change the way someone views a passage of the Bible (and Shakespear, for that matter).  Most peeple have to go through years of training in English Language history to understand the changes.  Something tells me that Pastor Bob at the First Bible Baptist KJV only church doesn't understand these changes.

That is the only advantage that the Catholic Church had over the Protestants for all those years having Bibles in Latin.  Latin is a dead language.  If no longer changes or evolves.  English is changing all the time.

[12th Doctor]

In the NACV I call Satan Jesus. The two versus below are from the NACV. They both are talking about the morning star

Isaiah
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O morning star, son of the dawn! How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations!


Rev
22 16 I, Jesus, sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and offspring of David,  the bright morning star


Now in the KJV this is what it says...
I
sa
14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev
22: 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Supersoulty.. what do you have to say about this?

This is what happens where you try to take two completely different texts, with two seperate contexts and run a comparison.

It is an established fact that Satan was known as the Morning Star.  Lucifer means "The Light Bringer" or, in context "The Morning Star".  It is a direct translation.  DIRECT.  The NACV simply translated it out of Latin.

The two passages probably have nothing to do with one another, theologically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

[12th Doctor]

http://www.crivoice.org/lucifer.html

But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words:  lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring."  So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light.

Indeed.

[12th Doctor]

supersoulty how do you get saved?

Alright, now we are talking.  I was waiting for this thing to get moving.  Let me assemble my resources.  This shoudln't take too long.

[12th Doctor]

supersoulty how do you get saved?

Acctually, if I might, I would like to ask for your opinion first.

Its a thing with me, I always like the other person to shoot first, it gives me a place to start from.

[12th Doctor]

First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

[12th Doctor]

In fact, it is worth noting that James is so direct here, that, in the Study Bible, this passage carries only about 5 footnotes, the fewest I think I have seen in one of such length.

[12th Doctor]

First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

[12th Doctor]

First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?

[12th Doctor]

First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?

Sorry, but I don't understand your other question..

Do you believe the Bible is definitive?  Meaning that, when things are taking into context, do you believe scripture is infallable?

[12th Doctor]

First off you have to know that we all are sinners damned to Hell, as stated in the verse below
Romans 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
It says we ALL have sinned...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

This verse tell you the only way to heaven is through Jesus. Jesus is the one and only way to heaven. You can't get there by being a good person or works or saints.

Romans10:
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This says that if you believe Jesus raised from the dead and as ask him into your heart then you will be say, but you have to truly mean it.


* So you have to know that you are a sinner, and truly want Jesus to come into your life to save you to be save*

Okayy, well, I agree with part of your premise... that we are saved through Jesus.  And it has never never been the position of any mainstream Church that we are ever "saved" through saints, so I don't know where you go that.

This has raised to the level of a cliche, but what do you make of the book of James.  It is, James tells us:

James 1 & 2

22
Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
23
For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror.
24
He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like.
25
But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.
26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.
27
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows  in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world

1
My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
2
For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
3
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Sit here, please," while you say to the poor one, "Stand there," or "Sit at my feet,"
4
have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? 
5
Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him?
6
But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court?
7
Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you?
8
However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10
For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.
11
For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom.
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly, James is talking about acts here, along with faith.  Faith without works is dead.  Faith is justified through works.  Treat others as fellow brothers, regardless of station, etc.

It should be works without faith is dead.  Yes, you should do works for God and if you are truly saved then you will want to do works for God. But nowhere does it say if you don't do work for God means you are not saved... I believe once saved always saved.

I assume you meant "without".  Well, you know what, that's great.  Luther thought it shoudl be that too.  In fact, he tried to have the book of James deleted from the Bible, that created an outcry, even amounst his supporters, though, so Protestant theology just found a way to ignore it for 400 years.

I don't want to know what you think it should be.  That's what it IS.  And you can't ignore it, because the context is obvious.  Now, do you accept the definitivness of the Bible, or don't you?

After you answer that, we can move onto this "Once saved, always saved" thing

Your right it should be faith without works is dead.

Okay, well, what say you to my other questions?

Sorry, but I don't understand your other question..

Do you believe the Bible is definitive?  Meaning that, when things are taking into context, do you believe scripture is infallable?

Yes I do believe the bible is infallable.

And you still stick by sola fide

[12th Doctor]

yes

What if I told you that I can prove to you, using only scripture that sola fide is wrong, that, in fact, it is not even the most important part of salvation?

[12th Doctor]

So that you know I am not just pulling out something totally random here, I want to give some context first.  In Galatians 5, Paul tells us:

6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This doesn't say much, admitedly, but Paul explains it a little further in 1 Corinthians.

Again, I will give the context.  Paul, for whatever reason, feels compeled to talk about Christian Spiritual gifts.  In chapter 12, he breezes over the other gifts.  He finishes in another famous passage, which I am sure will be important later:

27
Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

We then turn to Chapter 13... I'll give you the whole thing, for purposes of context, but I will bold the important parts:

1
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Now, the mention of the other two (faith and hope) is kinda random, but they were a well known triad at the time.  The fact that it is so random though, suggests that Paul is going to an extra length to make his point, after contrasting Love to all the other minor gifts.

[12th Doctor]

yes

What if I told you that I can prove to you, using only scripture that sola fide is wrong, that, in fact, it is not even the most important part of salvation?

Show me where it says that(in the kjv).

Site for an online KJV?  I want you to pick your preference.

[12th Doctor]

So that you know I am not just pulling out something totally random here, I want to give some context first.  In Galatians 5, Paul tells us:

6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This doesn't say much, admitedly, but Paul explains it a little further in 1 Corinthians.

Again, I will give the context.  Paul, for whatever reason, feels compeled to talk about Christian Spiritual gifts.  In chapter 12, he breezes over the other gifts.  He finishes in another famous passage, which I am sure will be important later:

27
Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

We then turn to Chapter 13... I'll give you the whole thing, for purposes of context, but I will bold the important parts:

1
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Now, the mention of the other two (faith and hope) is kinda random, but they were a well known triad at the time.  The fact that it is so random though, suggests that Paul is going to an extra length to make his point, after contrasting Love to all the other minor gifts.

What is your point? That still don't say anything about works helping you get to heaven.

I said I was going to prove that sola fide was wrong.  Did I not just do that?

[12th Doctor]

My argument isn't over yet, BTW.  I am simply working up to the point.