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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2004, 07:03:56 pm »

A possible Kerry/Edwards ticket... Roy Moore on the cards... who knows, the Democrats may even win a state or two in the South. Grin

Heck, I'm allowed to dream, aren't I.
Yes, you are.  I will try to find Roy Moore's e-mail adress and write him an essay begging him to run.  I would tell him I'm a Dem though Smiley
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2004, 07:08:32 am »

I dont know exactly how popular the guy is in the south, however if he runs strong like 15-20% he could throw some deep south states to a democrat, even more likely if the democrats nominate Edwards.
He could even win Alabama, be like a George Wallace candidate.

I find it quite funny that those outside of the Religious Right (RR) think they know the level of support within the RR for Moore.

Okay, you're the expert. Go ahead and tell us. Otherwise we'll just continue guessing, even though it is kinda uninformed. What can we do? We're mentally unable to keep our mouths shut!
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2004, 07:37:49 am »

Okay, you're the expert. Go ahead and tell us. Otherwise we'll just continue guessing, even though it is kinda uninformed. What can we do? We're mentally unable to keep our mouths shut!
I don't see why we cannot predict the religious's right's voting patterns.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2004, 07:45:59 am »

Okay, you're the expert. Go ahead and tell us. Otherwise we'll just continue guessing, even though it is kinda uninformed. What can we do? We're mentally unable to keep our mouths shut!
I don't see why we cannot predict the religious's right's voting patterns.

It should be easier for anyone who knows lots of people on the religious right and knows what they really think about Roy Moore. There's nothing immoral in us discussing it, it's just not too effective.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2004, 08:01:02 am »

It should be easier for anyone who knows lots of people on the religious right and knows what they really think about Roy Moore. There's nothing immoral in us discussing it, it's just not too effective.
Well, JMF is a member of the religious right.  That is evident from reading his posts.  But, we have analyzed (to some degree) the religous right's voting patterns, and we are fit to predict what they would dp in 2004.  I don't see anything wrong with that.
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2004, 08:09:10 am »

It should be easier for anyone who knows lots of people on the religious right and knows what they really think about Roy Moore. There's nothing immoral in us discussing it, it's just not too effective.
Well, JMF is a member of the religious right.  That is evident from reading his posts.  But, we have analyzed (to some degree) the religous right's voting patterns, and we are fit to predict what they would dp in 2004.  I don't see anything wrong with that.
No, of course not. Even JMF didn't technically claim that. He said he found it funny. Unfortunately he didn't go on by telling us his opinion, which would have been worthwhile to hear. So really I wanted to elicit a reply by him.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2004, 03:32:28 pm »

Even JMF didn't technically claim that.
But you can tell by his posts htat he is a christian conservative, as he commonly and frequently makes references to god and the bible.
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2004, 04:40:13 pm »

Not sure I could give any insight into the RR.  It is very nebulous and not interconnected at all.  I couldn’t even give you insights into a specific denomination since I go to an inter-denominational church.  There are many different opinions in my church and even different interpretation of our own pastor’s sermons.  People’s ears tend to filter a sermon toward their own beliefs.  But we accept the fact we are individuals with differing opinions.

Also, I don’t believe the Ten Commandments are in force for the NT, so I really don’t understand Moore’s point in the first place.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2004, 04:41:13 pm »

Not sure I could give any insight into the RR.  It is very nebulous and not interconnected at all.  I couldn’t even give you insights into a specific denomination since I go to an inter-denominational church.  There are many different opinions in my church and even different interpretation of our own pastor’s sermons.  People’s ears tend to filter a sermon toward their own beliefs.  But we accept the fact we are individuals with differing opinions.

Also, I don’t believe the Ten Commandments are in force for the NT, so I really don’t understand Moore’s point in the first place.


Sorry for being uneducated on the RR and Judge Moore, but what is his point?
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2004, 01:51:46 am »

Moore put up the Ten Commandments in his courtroom and got sacked for it after a very public row (I guess it's much more complicated in detail, but that's all I remember).
JMF seems to claim that the ten commandments only apply to Jews and that he is allowed to kill (sorry, I'm being polemic. He's forbidden to kill, but not because of the Ten Commandments but because it also says so in the NT somewhere). I think I dimly remember a few verses in Mark that could be interpreted in that way, but no major denomination in Germany follows that interpretation.
As Moore too is a Christian and wanted people to live according to Christian law, this would make the Ten Commandments a less than perfect text to make this point.
Have I got this about right?
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2004, 02:59:32 am »
« Edited: February 07, 2004, 03:11:09 am by jmfcst »

JMF seems to claim that the ten commandments only apply to Jews and that he is allowed to kill (sorry, I'm being polemic. He's forbidden to kill, but not because of the Ten Commandments but because it also says so in the NT somewhere). I think I dimly remember a few verses in Mark that could be interpreted in that way, but no major denomination in Germany follows that interpretation.

I don’t know what verse in Mark you’re referring to, but:

1st)  It is impossible to separate the Ten Commandments from the other 600 commandments of the Law of Moses.
2nd) Jesus said in Mat 22:36-39 that the Two Greatest Commandments are “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” (Dt 6:5) and “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:Cool…You won’t find those two commands included within the 10 Commandments, for the 10 Commandments were never the cornerstone of God’s will.
3rd)  As far as those German denominations disagreeing with me…unless they rest from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night, they are in violation of the 10 Commandments since the 4th Commandment was to “Keep the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.”  Nowhere in the NT does it refer to the Sabbath as Sunday.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I do believe there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, but I believe that remaining rest is the eternal rest in Heaven; for the original Sabbath in Genesis 2:2-3 was NOT a one day rest like the one given to the Jews in the 10 Commandment, rather it was an eternal rest.  

The NT freedom from this command is backed up in Rom 14:5; Col 2:16; Gal 4:10; and Heb 3:7-4:12 and is in agreement with the entire NT, the prophesies of the OT, as well as the first biblical reference of the Sabbath given in the account of Creation before the 10 Commandments was even given.

Thus the NT Sabbath of an eternal heavenly rest matches the enternal rest God took in Gen 2:2, which is unlike the one day a week rest given to the Jews.

The Sabbath given to the Jews in the 10 Commandments was simply a foreshadowing of the true Sabbath that would last for eternity.  As it is written: “God rested from ALL his work” (Gen 2:2).  And again, “his work has been finished since the creation of the world” (Heb 4:4).

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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2004, 03:10:13 am »

JMF seems to claim that the ten commandments only apply to Jews and that he is allowed to kill (sorry, I'm being polemic. He's forbidden to kill, but not because of the Ten Commandments but because it also says so in the NT somewhere). I think I dimly remember a few verses in Mark that could be interpreted in that way, but no major denomination in Germany follows that interpretation.

I don’t know what verse in Mark you’re referring to, but:

1st)  It is impossible to separate the Ten Commandments from the other 600 commandments of the Law of Moses.
2nd) Jesus said in Mat 22:36-39 that the Two Greatest Commandments are “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” (Dt 6:5) and “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:Cool…You won’t find those two commands included within the 10 Commandments, for the 10 Commandments were never the cornerstone of God’s will.
3rd)  As far as those German denominations disagreeing with me…unless they rest from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night, they are in violation of the 10 Commandments since the 4th Commandment was to “Keep the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.”  Nowhere in the NT does it refer to the Sabbath as Sunday.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I do believe there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, but I believe that remaining rest is the eternal rest in Heaven; for the original Sabbath in Genesis 2:2-3 was NOT a one day rest like the one given to the Jews in the 10 Commandment, rather it was an eternal rest.  This is backed up in Rom 14:5; Col 2:16; Gal 4:10; and Heb 3:7-4:12 and is in agreement with the entire NT & OT as well as the first biblical reference of the Sabbath given in the account of Creation.

The Sabbath given to the Jews in the 10 Commandments was simply a foreshadowing of the true Sabbath that would last for eternity.  As it is written: “God rested from ALL his work” (Gen 2:2).  And again, “his work has been finished since the creation of the world” (Heb 4:4).



Alright, alright. I did understand you crrectly. The bit from mark i was thinking of one about the Mosaic Law not being applicable to the disciples. It is indeed concerned about the Sabbath.
The Ten Commandments are just one of those Biblical texts you see quoted the most. Though the point about the Sabbath seems logical to me, both Catholics and Protestants go about and teach people that this is one of the bible's most important texts.
But never mind.
PS In Germany the major confessions are the Roman Catholic church and those denominations federated in the Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland. (Evangelisch doesn't  mean Evangelical, it's used in the sense of Protestant). these are mostly Lutherans, plus Dutch Reformed, Methodist (very few) and the so called Freikirchen. I don't know where exactly to fit these latter people in, fundamentalist independent Lutheran would roughly fit the bill, I guess.

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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2004, 03:30:48 am »

The Ten Commandments are just one of those Biblical texts you see quoted the most. Though the point about the Sabbath seems logical to me, both Catholics and Protestants go about and teach people that this is one of the bible's most important texts.

From a biblical perspective, the significance of the 10 Commandments is that it was the very first scripture given to man and remains the only scripture written literally by God himself.

But the scripture states that the 10 Commandments served as a testimony against humanity, thus it became a death warrant, which was only removed by the death of Christ.

The 10 Commandments, written by God himself, are also a foreshadowing of Christ writing his law on the hearts of Christians at the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

There is much for the Christian to be taught from the 10 Commandments, but they are not the standard for the NT Church, rather they simply serve as a shadow of the reality that is found in Christ.
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2004, 08:31:36 am »


I don’t know what verse in Mark you’re referring to, but:

2nd) Jesus said in Mat 22:36-39 that the Two Greatest Commandments are (...) “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:Cool

As long as they don't take an interest in you or deserves to get their teeth kicked in, right? Wink

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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2004, 12:17:25 am »

As long as they don't take an interest in you or deserves to get their teeth kicked in, right? Wink

Kicking in someone's teeth that is threatening or trying to take control of my family is not against the teachings of the bible.  Indeed, I am told to turn the other cheek if *I* am slapped, but those instructions didn't restrict me from taking action if someone is abusing my family.

But in the first example you cited, I don't know what you mean by "taking an interest in you"?  If busybodies are whom you're referring to...telling someone to butt out doesn't mean I don't love them.
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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2004, 10:35:46 am »

As long as they don't take an interest in you or deserves to get their teeth kicked in, right? Wink

Kicking in someone's teeth that is threatening or trying to take control of my family is not against the teachings of the bible.  Indeed, I am told to turn the other cheek if *I* am slapped, but those instructions didn't restrict me from taking action if someone is abusing my family.

But in the first example you cited, I don't know what you mean by "taking an interest in you"?  If busybodies are whom you're referring to...telling someone to butt out doesn't mean I don't love them.

OK, then...they might not love you back when you call them busy-bodies and throw them out, though... Wink
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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2004, 11:13:49 am »

OK, then...they might not love you back when you call them busy-bodies and throw them out, though... Wink

And I'm sure the money-changers weren't too thrilled with Jesus when he used a whip and drove them from the Temple....calling someone a busybody is pretty mild in comparison.
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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2004, 12:23:58 pm »

OK, then...they might not love you back when you call them busy-bodies and throw them out, though... Wink

And I'm sure the money-changers weren't too thrilled with Jesus when he used a whip and drove them from the Temple....calling someone a busybody is pretty mild in comparison.

I don't know if that's a correct parallell, but I suppose your point is that Jesus loved everyone, even the money-changers, right?
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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2004, 12:31:25 pm »

I don't know if that's a correct parallell, but I suppose your point is that Jesus loved everyone, even the money-changers, right?

Simply trying to point out that even the use of force is not contradictory with love.
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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2004, 01:22:53 pm »

I don't know if that's a correct parallell, but I suppose your point is that Jesus loved everyone, even the money-changers, right?

Simply trying to point out that even the use of force is not contradictory with love.

Jesus' love for the money-changers...OK, I will accept it in principle.
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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2004, 12:48:09 am »

Jesus' love for the money-changers...OK, I will accept it in principle.

I suppose I could mention biblical examples of people God hated, but that would be a little off topic.
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« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2004, 09:28:01 am »

Jesus' love for the money-changers...OK, I will accept it in principle.

I suppose I could mention biblical examples of people God hated, but that would be a little off topic.

What, bringing the gays up again?
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« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2004, 11:24:50 am »

What, bringing the gays up again?

No, not gays.  But there are some people the bible states that God does hate.
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2004, 11:46:30 am »

What, bringing the gays up again?

No, not gays.  But there are some people the bible states that God does hate.

I am interested then, who?
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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2004, 12:00:37 pm »

My understanding was always that you should “hate the sin and love the sinner” that’s always been the teaching of the churches I’ve regularly attended…

When Jesus drove the money lenders from the Temple he was attacking the poisoning of the sacred ground and the corruption of the Jewish hierarchy of the time not the people personally…

It has always been my impression that God hates the wickedness or the evil committed by people but not the people as he always offers the prospect of salvation… I do not think god could be considered to hate anything as is not hate and all destructive emotions identified with the devil who is the antithesis of God… but its been a while since I studied theology and I’m a bit rusty… still regularly read into philosophy though…

Disclaimer: I’m a Catholic by the way so that might colure my views here…however in terms of church teaching I’m liberal on some issues (married clergy, the notion of original sin, etc…) and conservative on other issues (some social issues, would prefer to see the Latin mass restored, very much an absolute believer in transubstantiation)… well there you go…
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