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Author Topic: $7.00 Minimum Wage????  (Read 17741 times)
Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2004, 09:20:52 am »
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NickG,

Raising the minimum wage doesn't ensure that someone who is more productive than 10 years ago and is paid $10 per hour gets their fair share of money.

Most of those productivity gains are not the result of workers, either.  Its automation, which is funded and driven by management.

I don't mean to suggest that raising the minimum wage would solve the problem of the distribution of productivity profits for those already making a middle class wage.

And yes, productivity gains are driven by automation.  But that doesn't change the fact that companies should now people able to afford to pay their workers more because they are able to get more work out of each worker.

Thirty or forty years ago, "small businesses" could afford to pay their workers to equivalent of $8/hour, because that was the minimum wage at the time.   Now, even after the productivity of those workers has increased over time (and it has, even for unskilled workers), you are saying that these same businesses would go bankrupt paying their workers more than $5.15?  I don't understand why this would be, except for some sort of "iron law of wages" idea that I would hope such an affluent society had gotten past a century ago.
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2004, 09:41:48 am »
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Ontario pays $8.00 an hour, that's about... $6 American.

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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2004, 09:48:48 am »
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If you don't like how the capitalist system works, move to a communist country. People are paid for the value of their labor.

And think about it - has the productivity of the unskilled worker REALLY increased? In some areas, with automation, certainly(however, with automation workers require skills to operate machinary, so they could be classified as skilled workers), but what about those areas not as affected by automation. Is the average worker at Burger King or McDonald's really more productive than 20 years ago? Doubtful. How about if you work at a supermarket, does automation really affect you that much? Or if you are a cashier? Or any number of unskilled jobs that still haven't become automated? I'm sure you'll find in automated jobs that wages may have indeed increased. Minimum wage forces companies to pay more than a job is worth - since inflation has occurred and an increase in minimum wage has not, the average unskilled wage has come back closer to the efficient equilibrium wage.
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2004, 12:16:06 pm »
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Low wages deincentivize labor. Think about it this way. If welfare recipients can get not much less than they would get making the minimum wage, and since it's non-taxable, in real terms they'd have a higher standard of living, why would they work? But if they would be earning more by working, there would be more of a reason to get up in the morning. In the long run, an increased minimum wage could reduce welfare spending.
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2004, 12:55:42 pm »
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Speaking of Minimum Wage increases, I read in the paper today that New York is probably going to raise the minimum wage here to $7.15 by 2007.  Pataki said he'll sign it if it passes in the state legislature.  I am very disgusted.
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2004, 02:08:34 pm »
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Getting rid of welfare entirely would be a good idea.  That what the Red Cross, churches and missions are for - helping the poor.  And since they are supervised by caring people, they have the incentive to get these people to want to work again, or have them do work for them in exchange for food and shelter.

I don't want to support a bunch of people who refuse to work with my tax dollars.  

The minimum wage elminates competition for work and hurts starting businesses, and increases cost to the consumer because that money is going to come from somewhere.  We would be better off without either a minimum wage or a welfare system.
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« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2004, 02:16:11 pm »
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The minimum wage elminates competition for work and hurts starting businesses, and increases cost to the consumer because that money is going to come from somewhere.  

That money goes somewhere too.   The worker who recieves the extra money spends it at a store, and the people who work at that store recieve it and then spend it again.
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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2004, 03:52:27 pm »
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The minimum wage elminates competition for work and hurts starting businesses, and increases cost to the consumer because that money is going to come from somewhere.  

That money goes somewhere too.   The worker who recieves the extra money spends it at a store, and the people who work at that store recieve it and then spend it again.

And the workers who are fired because the employer can't afford to pay all his employees this new higher wage aren't getting any money.
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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2004, 04:06:47 pm »
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And the workers who are fired because the employer can't afford to pay all his employees this new higher wage aren't getting any money.

As long as it's kept within reason, no one will be fired.  In addition, the slight raise will allow other companies to expand and hire new workers as Mr. Smith buys their products with it.  It goes in a circle, they pay more but they also get more in return.

I disagree with such a huge leap in minimum wage, but I do think it should be raised to deal with inflation and make sure everyone has enough money to eat 3 meals a day comfortably rather than barely enough to survive (the natural minimum wage).
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« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2004, 07:31:38 pm »
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Everyone who is arguing this isn't addressing why firms should be encouraged to stay in business if they are paying their workers desperation level wages.

And you are not addressing the question of whether the government really has any business whatsoever trying to micromanage something as complex as a national economy, when every government that has ever tried to do so has wound up either impoverished, overthrown, or finally admitting that the market does it better.
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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2004, 07:53:17 pm »

This will never happen because Frist and Hastert will never let it happen. However, the minimum wage does it lower every year due to inflation and cost-of-living increases. If anything it should be tied to inflation.
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« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2004, 08:05:50 pm »
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Dear Lord, NO! The last thing we need is yet another government number tied to the bureaucracy that calculates inflation.  Indexing Benefits, taxes, penalties, etc. doesn't really make anything fairer, all it does is make things more complicated and provide jobs for bureaucrats and accountants.
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« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2004, 08:09:39 pm »
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Why don't we go back to the Gold Standard...Yet another reason why I despise FDR.
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« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2004, 08:10:29 pm »

Dear Lord, NO! The last thing we need is yet another government number tied to the bureaucracy that calculates inflation.  Indexing Benefits, taxes, penalties, etc. doesn't really make anything fairer, all it does is make things more complicated and provide jobs for bureaucrats and accountants.

Well, suppose that I take a job paying $10 an hour. Then, after one year, there is a big oil shock that causes the price of everything to triple, so that it takes $10 just to buy what cost me $3.33 before. Do I have the right to ask my boss for a raise? Dear Lord NO! The last thing my boss needs is more work for his accounting department, which plays no role in creating the product his company sells. A raise for me definitely wouldn't make anything fairer. All it does is force my job to hire more accountants, so that they can multiply my current wage by the inflation rate. That would take them years (extreme sarcasm).
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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2004, 08:11:01 pm »
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Why don't we go back to the Gold Standard...Yet another reason why I despise FDR.

Ummm.....FDR has nothing to do with why we went off the gold standard.   It's mainly DeGualle.
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He isn't a total joke and a communist sympathizer. You'd be lucky to get 10% anywhere outside of DC. I don't even know that you could win DC. It would be awfully close in any event.
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2004, 08:11:26 pm »

Why don't we go back to the Gold Standard...Yet another reason why I despise FDR.

Ummm.....FDR has nothing to do with why we went off the gold standard.   It's mainly DeGualle.

Nixon.
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2004, 08:13:54 pm »
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FDR ended the gold standard in 1939.
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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2004, 08:15:29 pm »
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Governor Pataki vetoed the $7.10 increse, but I don't think there is enough ink in his veto pen, because the bills were passed with over 2/3rd majority of both houses.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2004, 08:16:50 pm »
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Here is the article.


http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761551563/Gold_Standard.html
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« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2004, 08:21:34 pm »


That is a good article. It shows what FDR did and what Nixon did... the gradual shift of the US away from the gold standard, which, was artificially causing the dollar to be highly valued.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2004, 09:13:47 pm »
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Governor Pataki vetoed the $7.10 increse,

What a jerk.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2004, 10:11:52 pm »
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Yeah, he wanted to keep small businesses from closing.

Yeah, he wanted to keep poor people from making any more money.
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« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2004, 10:21:36 pm »
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FDR ended the gold standard in 1939.

Yes, and then it was reinstituted after WWII at the Bretton Woods conference.  Nixon was forced to go off it again in the 1970's due to the French.
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« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2004, 10:39:35 pm »
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I don't think any politician actually wants to stop poor people from making money.  Most politicians love raising the minimum raise because it's a cheap way to brag that you've done something for your constituents.

Precisely the reason why the minimum raise isn't indexed to inflation.  How can you claim credit for something every couple years if it's automatic?
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2004, 10:44:26 pm »
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I don't think any politician actually wants to stop poor people from making money.

Apparently you've never heard of Newtzi "The Nazi" Gingrich, "Dirty Dick" Armey, "Phascist Phil" Gramm, "Toilet Tommy" Thompson, and George Dumbya Bush. Scuzzbags they are.
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