TPTTAA Poll - Safe Injection Center Trial Program

[Yelnoc]

I'm voting for #2.

To elaborate, we should not encourage illegal behavior.

I'm pretty sure such behavior is not illegal in Atlasia. Or at least we decriminalized it.

I do have to remind people that all drugs have been legalized in Atlasia

     When did that happen? Last I was aware of, Heroin, meth, PCP, & opium were still illegal.

[Lief 🗽]

Huh. Seems we never did, just talked about it: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=95923.0

[Ebowed]

It's a moral question. Are they "worth it"?

Who is?

The murderers, robbers, and other criminals that are otherwise known as "junkies"

Yes, and I am asking -- if the junkies aren't worth some form of societal protection, who is?

I don't know where you heard that most junkies are murderers, but consider this the end of our discussion if you are prone to making such exaggerations.  Your personal vitriol towards drug users is clouding your perception of this very important public health & safety issue.

[Yelnoc]

It's a moral question. Are they "worth it"?

Who is?

The murderers, robbers, and other criminals that are otherwise known as "junkies"

Yes, and I am asking -- if the junkies aren't worth some form of societal protection, who is?

I don't know where you heard that most junkies are murderers, but consider this the end of our discussion if you are prone to making such exaggerations.  Your personal vitriol towards drug users is clouding your perception of this very important public health & safety issue.

The kind of people that will kill, my family, friends, and self for money for a hit on whatever their hooken on are certainly not worth "societal protection".

Leif, I read through that thread.  How do you people justify legalizing anabolic steroids?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

It's a moral question. Are they "worth it"?

Who is?

The murderers, robbers, and other criminals that are otherwise known as "junkies"

Yes, and I am asking -- if the junkies aren't worth some form of societal protection, who is?

I don't know where you heard that most junkies are murderers, but consider this the end of our discussion if you are prone to making such exaggerations.  Your personal vitriol towards drug users is clouding your perception of this very important public health & safety issue.

The kind of people that will kill, my family, friends, and self for money for a hit on whatever their hooken on are certainly not worth "societal protection".

Leif, I read through that thread.  How do you people justify legalizing anabolic steroids?

I just see a bunch of blue-rinsers sitting there on talkback... the OVERWHELMING majority of drug abusers do not commit violent acts against anyone. So using that as a reason to throw them on a scrapheap is bunk IMHO.

[Yelnoc]

It's a moral question. Are they "worth it"?

Who is?

The murderers, robbers, and other criminals that are otherwise known as "junkies"

Yes, and I am asking -- if the junkies aren't worth some form of societal protection, who is?

I don't know where you heard that most junkies are murderers, but consider this the end of our discussion if you are prone to making such exaggerations.  Your personal vitriol towards drug users is clouding your perception of this very important public health & safety issue.

The kind of people that will kill, my family, friends, and self for money for a hit on whatever their hooken on are certainly not worth "societal protection".

Leif, I read through that thread.  How do you people justify legalizing anabolic steroids?

I just see a bunch of blue-rinsers sitting there on talkback... the OVERWHELMING majority of drug abusers do not commit violent acts against anyone. So using that as a reason to throw them on a scrapheap is bunk IMHO.

So then, how do they get their money for whatever they're snorting, smoking, or shooting up?  Holding or attempting to hold jobs?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Some do, some get into serious trouble with loan-sharks etc

Also, the diseased mind is a sad/scary place - so we should allow them to just die?

[Ban my account ffs!]

As somebody with personal family experience regarding drug addiction, I've seen firsthand the terrible consequences of that drug use and that addiction not only upon the individual, but upon their friends, family, and  community.

In their cases, it was not the law that cleaned them up.  In fact, nearly every bad decision they made while addicted to drugs was done in an attempt to keep away from the law.

It was their family and friends and supportive community members who encouraged them to make the decision to seek help.  In the end, it was their own choice that drove them to seek treatment.  Now they live happy, functional lives drug-free.  And none of that was thanks to the police, harsh penalties, or the court system.

Safe injection sites are far from ideal, but they are a place where we can show support for these people in a harmless environment.  We can show them the benefits of seeking help and getting better without them having to worry about the police waiting just outside the door.

If they know that they have a choice and it all comes down to them, they will be less paranoid and trust those trying to help them more.

These safe injection centers also keep the actual drug use out of the community.  This way, they are consumed in a safe place, which protects the community from trouble as well.

[Yelnoc]

Some do, some get into serious trouble with loan-sharks etc

Also, the diseased mind is a sad/scary place - so we should allow them to just die?

Obviously they aren't all violent criminals but they all, with fleetingly few exceptions, either break the law to get their fix or consort with people (like loan sharks) who are breaking the law. 

And that's a rather crude appeal to emotion, though if we are going to worry about the diseased mind, why not devote our resources to alzeimers research or studies to help treat and cure other mental diseases? 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Snowguy, you point out that the bad decisions these drug addicts made were not necessarily under the influence.  How does providing a safe injection site cut down on those crimes?

Also, we all know that making dangerous drugs "safer" makes them more attractive.  I hope those of you who are advocating Safe Injection Centers realize that such places do not stop the damage the drugs do to the body of the user, making the "term" safe a danegrously misleading adjective.  If some guy is irrational enough to try hard drugs, telling him its safe to do it in this place will only encourage him (or her) to continue doing it.

Another thing, as I'm sure you all know,street drugs are extremely expensive.  I know this is true of heroin addicts and its probably true of meth and crack heads; these druggies are usually forced to become dealers to support their habits.  The most common method to create new customers that are hooked on you is it to get older elementary and middle school aged children alone with you and offer them some weed.  Once thy're high you tell them about this great new candy called ice (or whatever the drug is) and ask them if they want to try.  As you can imagine, it works a lot of the time.  Now imagine if the wanna-be dealer says "hey look, man, you can go try some of this in the "Safe Injection Center", you'll be fine.

This opens up a whole shelf of worm cans.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Some do, some get into serious trouble with loan-sharks etc

Also, the diseased mind is a sad/scary place - so we should allow them to just die?

Obviously they aren't all violent criminals but they all, with fleetingly few exceptions, either break the law to get their fix or consort with people (like loan sharks) who are breaking the law. 

And that's a rather crude appeal to emotion, though if we are going to worry about the diseased mind, why not devote our resources to alzeimers research or studies to help treat and cure other mental diseases? 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Snowguy, you point out that the bad decisions these drug addicts made were not necessarily under the influence.  How does providing a safe injection site cut down on those crimes?

Also, we all know that making dangerous drugs "safer" makes them more attractive.  I hope those of you who are advocating Safe Injection Centers realize that such places do not stop the damage the drugs do to the body of the user, making the "term" safe a danegrously misleading adjective.  If some guy is irrational enough to try hard drugs, telling him its safe to do it in this place will only encourage him (or her) to continue doing it.

Another thing, as I'm sure you all know,street drugs are extremely expensive.  I know this is true of heroin addicts and its probably true of meth and crack heads; these druggies are usually forced to become dealers to support their habits.  The most common method to create new customers that are hooked on you is it to get older elementary and middle school aged children alone with you and offer them some weed.  Once thy're high you tell them about this great new candy called ice (or whatever the drug is) and ask them if they want to try.  As you can imagine, it works a lot of the time.  Now imagine if the wanna-be dealer says "hey look, man, you can go try some of this in the "Safe Injection Center", you'll be fine.

This opens up a whole shelf of worm cans.

Ok - since you're decrying our methods... what would you do? that's actually proven to work?

[bgwah]

Well, I've been trying to introduce some more controversial bills to fill the void left by Libby's banishment. I'm glad I sort of succeeded (sort of because there wasn't actually a lot of debate in the Senate )

[Yelnoc]

Some do, some get into serious trouble with loan-sharks etc

Also, the diseased mind is a sad/scary place - so we should allow them to just die?

Obviously they aren't all violent criminals but they all, with fleetingly few exceptions, either break the law to get their fix or consort with people (like loan sharks) who are breaking the law. 

And that's a rather crude appeal to emotion, though if we are going to worry about the diseased mind, why not devote our resources to alzeimers research or studies to help treat and cure other mental diseases? 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Snowguy, you point out that the bad decisions these drug addicts made were not necessarily under the influence.  How does providing a safe injection site cut down on those crimes?

Also, we all know that making dangerous drugs "safer" makes them more attractive.  I hope those of you who are advocating Safe Injection Centers realize that such places do not stop the damage the drugs do to the body of the user, making the "term" safe a danegrously misleading adjective.  If some guy is irrational enough to try hard drugs, telling him its safe to do it in this place will only encourage him (or her) to continue doing it.

Another thing, as I'm sure you all know,street drugs are extremely expensive.  I know this is true of heroin addicts and its probably true of meth and crack heads; these druggies are usually forced to become dealers to support their habits.  The most common method to create new customers that are hooked on you is it to get older elementary and middle school aged children alone with you and offer them some weed.  Once thy're high you tell them about this great new candy called ice (or whatever the drug is) and ask them if they want to try.  As you can imagine, it works a lot of the time.  Now imagine if the wanna-be dealer says "hey look, man, you can go try some of this in the "Safe Injection Center", you'll be fine.

This opens up a whole shelf of worm cans.

Ok - since you're decrying our methods... what would you do? that's actually proven to work?

Before I answer this, I want to clarify something that has been bugging me for a long time.  Are the internal and external events of Atlasia exactly the same as American when not specified by the game mod?  For instance, can I assume that Mexican Cartels control that country and are the most used smuggling root into the US?  OR that almost all heroin is grown in Afghanistan?  For that matter, are we fighting a war in Afghanistan?

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

This is my understanding.

[Badger]

This is my understanding.

[Yelnoc]

Ok then, glad that's cleared up.

My biggest gripe with this approach is that it is not comprehensive at all.  People are encouraged to harm their bodies and relationships with friends and family, not to mention severely degrade their socio-economic standing through immenent job loss, by the legalization of dangerous drugs.  Safe Injection Centers help this process by luring people into a false sense of security and treating the symptoms rather than the problem.

I would instead favor a multi-pronged comprehensive approach that seeks as its first priority to cut the flow of drugs off at its source.  There is cocaine which is grown primarily in Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru and transfered north through Latin America and across the Mexican border or the Caribbean Sea into Atlasia.  Then there is heroin, grown primarily in Afghanistan since the collapse of the Taliban in 2001 and transported west to Europe and then by plane to the Atlasian northeast.  Finally, there is methamphetamine which is produced locally.

To target Heroin, the first thing I would do is drop the silly discussion of embargo.  We are occupying Afghanistan, how in hell does it make any sense to place an embargo on their goods when we want the country stabilized?  If we continue along the same path of augmenting the police and paramilitary government forces to stabilize the country against extremists and subsidize farmers to grow crops other than poppies, we can hopefully stop the bulk of heroin smuggling before it leaves the farms.  I would also suggest working with/pressuring the European Union to enforce stricture laws against the heroin trade and increase anti-smuggling measures in airports.

Cocaine is a tougher problem.  Its primary grower are spread across three South American countries where, unlike Afghanistan, we do not already have troops stationed.  Working with the governments of Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru to subsidize a crop that grows well in that climate, thus making it more profitable than coca leaves and dissuading the farmers from growing them.  We also need to work with the Mexican and other Central American governments to break the power of the cartels.  In addition, maintaining border security is key.

Meth is probably the hardest of the "hard drugs" to stop because there is no import process; it is produced in bathtubs and the back of vans.  Add campaigns on TV to try and keep children and teens from trying it in addition to stepping up police action against the labs and making various common over the counter drugs that are ingredients in meth much harder or impossible to buy.

Of course, a "comprehensive plan" cannot just be focused externally.  Many domestic measures must be taken to counter the problem.  Federally funded clinics to help recovering drug addicts need to be opened and the ones already in existence must be given full funding.  Rehabilitation needs to be a primary focus of the criminal justice system when it comes to process illegal drug offenders (barring those who have committed other crimes such as theft, assault, murder trafficking, etc., or have a history of repeated offenses).

Actually, I would like to present this in some form to Congress, can someone tell me how to go about that?

[Sbane]

I'll let you finish your plan before criticizing too much, but just keep in mind that shutting off supply doesn't reduce demand. If demand exists, the supply will reach it somehow, especially if the demand is highly inelastic. It's just simple economics really.



For highly addictive drugs like Heroin, this would be a good model for the demand curve, although admittedly it won't be perfectly inelastic.

[Yelnoc]

I'll let you finish your plan before criticizing too much, but just keep in mind that shutting off supply doesn't reduce demand. If demand exists, the supply will reach it somehow, especially if the demand is highly inelastic. It's just simple economics really.



For highly addictive drugs like Heroin, this would be a good model for the demand curve, although admittedly it won't be perfectly inelastic.

That is true, though if there is no supply and high demand, the drug addicts will hopefully come in droves to the clinics for the opiod medications and stay for the counseling.

[Yelnoc]

So is my post completely unworthy of a response or does everyone have tl;dr syndrome?

[Hatman 🍁]

Option #2 is extremely offensive to anyone who has had drug abuse in their family or among their friends.

[Ebowed]

Option #2 is extremely offensive to anyone who has had drug abuse in their family or among their friends.

That is the trolling OP's intent, otherwise he would debate the issue within the parameters of reality.

[Teddy (IDS Legislator)]

Option #2 is extremely offensive to anyone who has had drug abuse in their family or among their friends.

That is the trolling OP's intent, otherwise he would debate the issue within the parameters of reality.

Frankly, I would not be friends with someone who was addicted to hard drugs.