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Author Topic: israel, the wall, and the joke that is the 'world court'  (Read 5361 times)
WalterMitty
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« on: July 22, 2004, 11:27:33 am »

what do you all think of the world court ruling that the israeli wall is illegal.

i find it appalling that the world court and the EU (who is opposed to meddling in other country's business, by the way) are trying to take away israel's right to self defense.

what dont they address the issue of palestinian terrorism?

i hope sharon throws this 'ruling' in the garbage can where it belongs.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2004, 01:34:16 pm »

Most international institutions are slanted against Israel, which is very unfortunate. And EU foreign policy...I'm gonna refrain from ranting and just say "ewwwww". Tongue
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MarkDel
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2004, 01:44:10 pm »

Most international institutions are slanted against Israel, which is very unfortunate. And EU foreign policy...I'm gonna refrain from ranting and just say "ewwwww". Tongue

Gustaf,

It's good to know that there are Europeans like you out there...
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JohnFKennedy
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2004, 02:12:21 pm »

Most international institutions are slanted against Israel, which is very unfortunate. And EU foreign policy...I'm gonna refrain from ranting and just say "ewwwww". Tongue

^^

How the hell is this the EU's business is what I want to know.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2004, 02:39:05 pm »

Most international institutions are slanted against Israel, which is very unfortunate. And EU foreign policy...I'm gonna refrain from ranting and just say "ewwwww". Tongue

^^

How the hell is this the EU's business is what I want to know.

Very good question. I wish they'd just give up on the concept of a common foreign policy for Europe and accept that we may hold different opinions on those matters.

Mark, there are a few of us...we do our best. Wink
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True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2004, 09:39:45 pm »

I have no sympathy for either the Israelis or the Palestinians, as neither side seems interested in a reasonable peace.  There certainly will be no peace as long as either Sharon or Arafat is in charge.  However, the advisory didn't say that Israel couldn't build a wall, just that that couldn't build it on occupied territory.  The Israelis have a right to self-defense, but they have no right to grab leibenstraum at the expense of the Palestinians.
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cwelsch
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2004, 08:27:12 pm »

1) World opinion is clearly anti-Semitic at many times, and the UN is clearly biased in its results against Israel.

2) The ICJ (sometimes called world court, but it's not) was correct in this ruling, if we assume that the borders of Israel end at the Green Line (the West Bank border).  It's effectively a land grab and it violates the freedom of movement of those around it.

3) The VAST MAJORITY OF THE FENCE is perfectly legal and was not even covered in this ICJ ruling.  This is something over 95% of the security fence, because it's within the boundaries of the Green Line.  This is also protected by the national right to self-defense: perhaps the very first principles of all international legal traditions.


And let's not forget that the wall has been extremely effective in holding back terrorist attacks and suicide bombings in Israel.
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True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2004, 09:45:35 pm »

The ICJ (sometimes called world court, but it's not) was correct in this ruling, if we assume that the borders of Israel end at the Green Line (the West Bank border).

Well, the only other boundary that could be considered an internationally recognized boundary line would be the 1947 partion line, but I find it extremely doubtful that could ever be considered as the basis of an Israeli-Palestinean peace treaty by even the most dovish of Israelis, so the Green Line is what has to be considered as the de facto border between Israel and Palestine, even if it be not the de jure border.
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The Duke
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2004, 10:20:25 pm »

There is no need for de facto or de jure debates about borders.  All of that land is Israeli for the time being, and they can build whatever they want wherever they want.

This is not to say that I find the current state of affairs perfectly suitable, but there is no border between Israel and "Palestine" because there is no country called Palestine.
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True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2004, 10:39:33 pm »

There is no need for de facto or de jure debates about borders.  All of that land is Israeli for the time being, and they can build whatever they want wherever they want.

This is not to say that I find the current state of affairs perfectly suitable, but there is no border between Israel and "Palestine" because there is no country called Palestine.

If all that land is Israeli, then all those people should be allowed to vote for the Knesset.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2004, 10:51:14 pm »

There is no need for de facto or de jure debates about borders.  All of that land is Israeli for the time being, and they can build whatever they want wherever they want.

This is not to say that I find the current state of affairs perfectly suitable, but there is no border between Israel and "Palestine" because there is no country called Palestine.

If all that land is Israeli, then all those people should be allowed to vote for the Knesset.

If all that land is Isreli, then Israel can choose who can and can't vote.
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True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2004, 11:33:07 pm »

Well, then there goes Israel's claim to be a democracy if it tries to control the land but deny the inhabitants a voice.  Israel is in the uneviable position of the lady riding the tiger.  She can't afford to get off the tiger (i.e withdraw to the '67 borders without a treaty) or keep riding the tiger (occupy the West Bank and Gaza).  What she needs (if I keep this stupid metaphor going more than is warranted) is for the tiger to go to sleep so she safely get away (an Israeli-Palestinian treaty).  Unfortunately the tiger (Arafat) still hopes the lady will get off and the lady (Sharon) wants to keep riding.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2004, 11:37:39 pm »

However, just because Israel doesn't let Palestineans vote for the Knesset doesn't mean they aren't a democracy.  We don't let Puerto Rico vote for President or have a vote in congress, but we're a democracy.  Restrcting the franchise doesn't mean you aren't a democracy.

I agree that it is an impossible situation with all the animosity that has built up between the various leaders.
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True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2004, 11:43:47 pm »

The problem with the Puerto Rican analogy is that it is US policy as has been demonstrated by four seperate referenda in which it was given as an option that Puerto Rico can have independence any time it wants it.  Israel has never indicated that it would be willing to return to the '67 borders , and as they would require giving up the Wailing Wall, I don't expect that it ever would be willing.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2004, 11:55:35 pm »

Barak was very close to giving back the '67 borders and some sort of joint control of Jerusalem.  That was the best deal the Palestineans will ever see.  Too bad they walked away, this would all be over by now.

The reason there hasn't been a referenda in the occupied territory is that no one can trust the validity of their elections.  They stuffed ballot boxes for Arafat.  We know that Puerto Rico would have legit elections.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2004, 12:07:21 am »

Agreed.  At the time I thought Arafat was too scared he would be assassinated if he made peace (a not unreasonable fear in my opinion for anyone on either side who seriously proposes a peace that has a chance of working)  but since then I've come to the more cynical view that Arafat feels that he can only keep control if there is no peace deal.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2004, 04:48:43 pm »

The only fair was is to go back to the 1948 borders.
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True Federalist
Ernest
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2004, 06:42:53 pm »

Which 1948 borders?  There were several different truces in 1948 with the boundaries different each time.  If you mean the partition boundary that was announced in 1947, its probably best to refer to that as the partition line or the 1947 border, altho the split between Arab abd Isaeli-controlled territory never fell along those lines.  The partition line might be the de jure border (I don't know; I'm not an expert in international law.), but it never was and never will be the de facto border.  There is no way Israel would agree to the partion line now unless it was losing a war and there is no way that the Arabs would settle for it if they were winning a war.  The 1949-1967 border with some mutually agreed modifications is the only possible basis for peace in the region.  Unfortunately, the possible might be impossible as well.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2004, 06:48:50 pm »

Which 1948 borders?  There were several different truces in 1948 with the boundaries different each time.  If you mean the partition boundary that was announced in 1947, its probably best to refer to that as the partition line or the 1947 border, altho the split between Arab abd Isaeli-controlled territory never fell along those lines.  The partition line might be the de jure border (I don't know; I'm not an expert in international law.), but it never was and never will be the de facto border.  There is no way Israel would agree to the partion line now unless it was losing a war and there is no way that the Arabs would settle for it if they were winning a war.  The 1949-1967 border with some mutually agreed modifications is the only possible basis for peace in the region.  Unfortunately, the possible might be impossible as well.


The government of Israel owes my family members hundreds of thousands of dollars for theft of rightly owned land. I could care less about Israel either way until this situation is resolved. And you can tell me that they are "Gods People" or whatever but they can't even prove their Jewish heritage as the majority are Eastern Europeans and not real Jews.
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M
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2004, 02:51:17 pm »

Alright, lots of issues here, I'll address one by one.

Ethnicities: States is correct, there is a LOT of nonjewish blood in modern Jewry. I doubt you could find a single 'pure' Jew anywhere. I, for example, am an officialy 'pure' Hew, but I clearly have some Teuton and Slav in me. I have been told I look like an Aystrian or suddeutsch intellectual. The Palestinains are also of mixed bloodlines. Many are Arabs from elsewhere in the region who arrived 1916-1945 to work in one of the Middle East's most successful regions economically. Some came as far as the Balkans and the Caucasus (these are known as Circassians, but some have blended in and are indistinguishable from the rest if the Palestinians). One caim has even been made by, I believe, the Saudis, that most European Jews are descended from the Khazars, an ethnically Turkish  Jewish kingdom in Eastern Europe in the 8-900s CE. However, this is highly doubtful, as only the aristocrats and merchants converted, and the Khazars were completely scattered by the Rus and later the Mongols.

Refugees: In 1947-1948, about 750,000 Arab Palestinians left their homes and fled, mostly to Gaza, West Bank, Transjordan, Southern Lebanon, and southern Syria. Only Jordan granted these refugees citizenship. A disproportionate amount of refugees were from areas that saw little fighting, like Haifa and the old ports of Jaffa and Acre (Yafo and Akko). Many also left the Galilee, including a mass exodus from the ancient city of Tzfat (Safed), where they outnumbered the Jews 5 to 1 and were on the verge of winning a major battle before they fled en masse. Today, Tzfat is more or less 100% Jewish. Contrary to popular belief, most left not because they were evicted but because Arab leaders caled on them to temporarily evacuate to make way for the ivading Arab armies. Ben-Gurion called on them to remain in the country. At the same time as all of this, 800,000 Sephardic Jews fled to Israel because they were expelled from their home Arab countres. This is a remarkably similar number. It can be viewed as an unofficial population exchange like the Greek-Turkish and Indian-Pakistani. Unfortunately, will citizenship was given the Jewish refugees by Israel, only Hashemite Jordan extended citizenship to the Palestinians, the rest, and their descendants (in a unique corruption of intl law), were made permanent refugees and given an entire UN organization, UNRWA, to keep them as suc. Any fair final status peace accord will make the Palestinians citizens of the new Palestinian state if they want tit, and encourage third countries (presumably mostly Arab) to help handle the surplus.

Arafat: From his beginnings as founder of the PLO in 1964 (three years before Israel captured the territories), to the famous airplane hijacker of the late 60s, his attempt to overthrow his Hashemite hosts in 1970 (Black September), the Munich Olympics masssacre of 1972, to starting the Lebanese civil war and ending Araby's only democracy by killing Presdient Gemayel, Arafat has never been anything but a thug and a terror mastermind, This has continued in his new incarnation as "statesman", "peacemaker", and Nobel prize winner (sadly, no quotes around that one). As head of the PA, Arafat has suppressed all freedoms at home in the name of fighting the occupation, and has launched terrorist attacks against Israelis, mostly far beyond the Green Line in places like Tel Aviv and Haifa. Official PA maps show all of Mandate Palestine as "the Arab Republic of Palestine), and do not show all Jewish cities like Tel Aviv, but do show Arab Israeli ones like Nazareth. Arafat, as a tin pot despot and terrorist killer, has brought nothing but pain to the people he claims to represent, and has foiled peace personally. Most recently, in 2000, when he turned down all of Gaza, 97% of the West Bank, the remaining 3% made up in Israeli territory, and all of East Jerusalem except the Western Wall; instead turning to the path of war. Peace is needed, but Arafat will never be the man to make it. All Palestinains who give a darn about their country should try to find a pragmatist like Abu Mazen or Mohammed Dahlan, who will compromise and mae peace. Of course, if they do, they will be hung as collaborators in the streets by Arafat's thuggish "Security Police".

Final territorial agreement: The 1948 Green Line will not suffice as a correct boundary because of major demographic changes. Some of the settlement blocs have tens of thousands of residents and are right across the Israeli border, surely it makes sense for them to be annexed by Israel. In exchange, Israeli Arab towns in the nearby southern Galilee could be transferred to Palestinian control. As for East Jerusalem, perhaps outlying Arab-majority areas could be transferred to Palestinian control, as former Jerusalem mayor and current deputy premier Ehud Olmert has suggested? However, the Mount of Olives and the Temple Mount are sure to remain in Israel proer. Recall that East Jerusalem Arabs, unlike West Bank Arabs, can currently vote in Israli elections and have Israeli citizenship and so forth.

The fence: I support the fence as a temporary security measure, not as a final border. The US also has a fence on the Mexican border, and the Saudis on the Yemeni. The ICJ has no jurisdiction over Israel, and their ruling was at times no short of ridiculous. They claimed a state has no right of self defense against non-state actors, that a non-lethal measure was not seld-defense, and so forth. It was truly a travesty of justice. Importantly, the fence has been successful in decreasing drastically the amount of terror attacks. And it is not completed yet. Once completed, it will deprive Arafat of his only weapon, and drive him back to the negotiating table, facing considerably less favorable terms than those he wasted in 2000.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2004, 07:06:08 pm »

M I must tell you a story about what happened to my family. Jewish extremists came to the house of one of my great uncles. They told him to immediately leave his home or they would rape all the women in the household. This is a true story and this disgusts me about the history or the Israelie military. Also, Israel has never apologized for the USS Liberty.
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M
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2004, 07:51:35 pm »

StatesRights, that is a truly terrible story, and the perpetrators of this crime are to be condemned. However, terribel things do happen in wartime; the Greco-Turkish exchange was also far from clean, not to mention what the Romans did to Carthage. Terrible as it is, not every hidtorical wrong can be undone, or you end u with a real cycle of violence. Our goal as humans should be to prevent more bad things from happening, and ISrael has a responsibility to protect its citizens from terror. After all, when an Arab man kills a Jewish baby, it does not matter if her great uncle mudered his grandmother. They are both now dead.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2004, 07:56:47 pm »

StatesRights, that is a truly terrible story, and the perpetrators of this crime are to be condemned. However, terribel things do happen in wartime; the Greco-Turkish exchange was also far from clean, not to mention what the Romans did to Carthage. Terrible as it is, not every hidtorical wrong can be undone, or you end u with a real cycle of violence. Our goal as humans should be to prevent more bad things from happening, and ISrael has a responsibility to protect its citizens from terror. After all, when an Arab man kills a Jewish baby, it does not matter if her great uncle mudered his grandmother. They are both now dead.

I find that both sides have lots of blood on their hands and both are guilty of some of the most disgusting crimes. My great aunt is Hanan Ashwari. I don't know if you ever heard of her but she worked for Arafat and wrote a book which is actually pretty good. The Palestinians do deserve a land to call their own and I hope one day they can get it.
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M
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2004, 09:49:02 pm »

I have indeed heard of her. I was rather impressed with her comments yesterday that Arafat is too corrupt and thuggish, and that Abu Ala can not simply do nothing and then blame Arafat. I personally agree with you that there should eventually be a Palestinian State west of the Jordan as well as a secure and Jewish Israel; the famed "two-state" solution.

It seems we largely meet on the middle with exception to some more minor policy disputes. I hope our leaders make the same decision. The war is not giving anyone anything but pain, and it's time to find a compromise we can all live with.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2004, 10:02:35 pm »

I have indeed heard of her. I was rather impressed with her comments yesterday that Arafat is too corrupt and thuggish, and that Abu Ala can not simply do nothing and then blame Arafat. I personally agree with you that there should eventually be a Palestinian State west of the Jordan as well as a secure and Jewish Israel; the famed "two-state" solution.

It seems we largely meet on the middle with exception to some more minor policy disputes. I hope our leaders make the same decision. The war is not giving anyone anything but pain, and it's time to find a compromise we can all live with.

The part I find most disgusting, on the Israeli side, is the leveling of civilian houses and businesses and their has been far to much "collatoral" damage for my liking.
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