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| | |-+  israel, the wall, and the joke that is the 'world court'
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Author Topic: israel, the wall, and the joke that is the 'world court'  (Read 5362 times)
M
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« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2004, 11:12:46 pm »

There has been a lot of that. When it is done as part of an irganized military operation to root out terrorists, it is justified. Other than that, however, it is difficult for me to analyze what information the Israeli govt may have that I do not; but strictly punitive destructions are not in anyone's interest.

However, property is not the same as lives. The Israelis have indeed killed innocents over the past four years, and that is extremely regrettable. However, Israel has consistently tried to limit civilian casualties, whereas the homicide terrorists go after civilians, often specifically young children. Also, this is a war, quite unfortunately but true; and this sort of nastiness does happen in wars.

What we need is to end the war, and I believe that while Sharon has made a pragmatic turn and is willing to compromise (pulling out of Gaza, committting in principle to a Palestinian state, and so forth), Arafat has not and will not make a commitment, and those who are willing to compromise for peace (Abu Mazen, Mohammed Dahlan, possibly Abu Ala, and now apparently Hanan Ashrawi, among others) are under attack from thugs like Mussa Arafat, Yasser's first cousin, and the Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which Arafat has recently aligned himself with the against moderates inside his own Fatah.

Because of ths, Israel must continue to defend itself in the short term, hopefully using methods like the Security Fence and the Rafah Phuiladelphi Canal to limit casualties on both sides to the extent possible. In the mid to long term, Israel must work with the United States and, hopefully, the EU to sideline Arafat and his cronies and help the moderate pragmatists take over. Many of Arafat's "soft" loyalists, like Jibril Rajoub, may defect to the pragmatists if Arafat weakens significantly.

Sharon, meanwhile, must maneuver deftly to keep his centrist coalition in power. If a real right-winger takes power (yes, Sharon was one once, but is clearly not anymore), he will try to reverse the disengagement process in favor of the settlers, which would be disastrous. If a true leftist were elected, he would deal directly with Arafat, thus taking the whole region right back to 2000. So the small group around Sharon, including Ehud Olmert and Shaul Mofaz, must maintain the center's power for the forseeable future until such time as the concerned parties can return to Camp David with guns holstered and swords sheathed.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2004, 11:15:02 pm »

My problem with the Palestinian resistance is when they started going after "soft" or civilian targets. Whatever you want to call it. I would have preferred them to attack military units only if they wanted to resist. Under no circumstances do I ever think civilians should ever be targeted.
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M
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« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2004, 11:34:06 pm »

Do you consider Israeli settlers, incluing babies, infirm,  and elderly,  living across the green line military or civilian?
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StatesRights
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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2004, 11:35:16 pm »

Do you consider Israeli settlers, incluing babies, infirm,  and elderly,  living across the green line military or civilian?

Civilian of course. I'm not bandit73. Wink Though I don't think they have the right to be on that land.
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M
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« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2004, 11:39:05 pm »

Well, good for you! Most Palestinians are either for hitting everything, hitting military and settlers, or hitting nothing. The distinction you draw is rare Over There.

States, are you working on your Pawns of Power AAR? Verin has already submitted his, complete with pictures.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2004, 11:41:30 pm »

Well, good for you! Most Palestinians are either for hitting everything, hitting military and settlers, or hitting nothing. The distinction you draw is rare Over There.


Like I said. I like my grandmother am rather moderate on the whole issue. She wants a free Palestine as much as any of her people but see she is a Christian who was born in Ramallah and she feels though the muslims are mostly good people they have been taken over by the nutters. She used to have a very high opinion of Arafat but thinks he's gone to far with his ideas. I never met my great aunt YET but my grandmother and her sisters have and they've been over to Ramallah in the early 90s and say it was absolutely beautiful.
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M
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« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2004, 11:47:10 pm »

The whole land of... Canaan, shall we say?... is beautiful. One more good reason for the fighting to end. But Arafat is not and never was after a Palestinian state, but after self-aggrandizement, destroying the Jewish state, and quite possibly fulfilling the Nasserite ideal of a greater United Arab Republic, from Western Sahara to Somalia to Hatay to Khuzestan. At an earlier time, destroying Israel really would have made that possible. Even today the Hashemite Kingdom would not last 3 days in the same world as a Canaan fully under Arafat's thumb. (Black eptember comes to mind again).
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Manahan
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« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2004, 06:55:48 am »

The wall is a regretable necessity, and the wall bears no resemblence to the Berlin Wall, which was built to keep people in, not out.  The figures speak for themselves, less death, both Israeli and Palestinian.
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cwelsch
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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2004, 11:37:09 pm »

There is no need for de facto or de jure debates about borders.  All of that land is Israeli for the time being, and they can build whatever they want wherever they want.

This is not to say that I find the current state of affairs perfectly suitable, but there is no border between Israel and "Palestine" because there is no country called Palestine.

If all that land is Israeli, then all those people should be allowed to vote for the Knesset.

I think he got it.  If they're Israeli then they have the right to vote and all the other rights of Israeli citizens.  If they're not then they don't have to be given voting rights.
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M
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2004, 01:34:07 am »

True. And of the occupied territories, only East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights have been formally annexed. The Arabs Muslims and Christians and the Armenians of Jerusalem, as well as the Golani Druze, all have full voting rights, Israeli passports, etc etc. West Bankers and Gazans do not, and Israel does not annex them because that drops the 82-18 Jewish-nonjewish demographic to around 62-38; and the nonjews as a whole and particularly Muslims have much higher birthrates. In other words, annexation is demographic suicide a la Lebanon for a Jewish Israel.

Because all other alternatives are immoral, impractical, or both, it is therefore absolutely necessary that a Palestinian state west if the Jordan be founded. Borders can be discussed in a final status agreement; the so-calles "Right of Return" is impossible because, with over 3.5 million Arabs considered Palestinian refugees by the UNRWA (clearly impossible given the original 750,000 in 1948), this is again demographic suicide. Some sort of financial compensation and resettlement within Palestine or a third country should be entirely possible.

However, the problem is finding someone to give the land "back" to. Egypt and Jordan have disavowed interest; it is assumed that an indigenous peace partner is required. However, Arafat is impossible to deal with, as his goal is not an independent Palestine but continued war and havoc, which suit his own dark goals. For this reason Israel has been forced to wall herself off (which, I think, everyone will agree is much better than continued Israeli-Palestinian street battles), assasinate the killers' masterminds (albeit with a truly unfortunate amount of innocent lives killed inadvertantly), and unilaterally remove settlements and outposts in a process referred to generally as "disengagement", though some use the term Separation cautiously. (And VERY cautiously, too- Rabbi Meir Kahane of the banned Kach political party and terror group, used Havdalah, Separation, to mean something entirely different and very nasty).

What is the ultimate result? One of two. One: that a pragmatic Palestinian leadership negotiates a final status agreement, at which point most Islamic countries recognize Israel and the Situation is at an end. (Two major outstanding points even following a Paalestinian-Israeli final status agreement: peace in the north with Syria and Lebanon; and Iran's avowed mission to eliminate the "Little Satan").

Second, and less fortunate: Palestine, as Israel unilaterally defines it, is utterly walled off. De facto an independent country, this nation claims to be under continued occupation and continues to attack Israel to the limited extent possible. Israel, for its part, considers the matter settled of necessity for the time being. The most unfortunate element here is there is no possibility of a general regional peace conference, as there would be under option one.

So, the goal for all sensibel concerned parties: Israelis, Palestinians, other Arabs, Americans, Europeans, and the UN, is to continue to sideline Arafat and try to enable the pragamtists to the degree possible. Fortunately the majority of Fatah has come to realize that Arafat has brought them only sorrow; Arafat has countered by allying with the Islamicists and even the Lebanese Hezbollah, through which he has contacts with Damascus and Tehran. The twilight struggle in Gaza and Ramallah continues.
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