israel, the wall, and the joke that is the 'world court'

[M]

Alright, lots of issues here, I'll address one by one.

Ethnicities: States is correct, there is a LOT of nonjewish blood in modern Jewry. I doubt you could find a single 'pure' Jew anywhere. I, for example, am an officialy 'pure' Hew, but I clearly have some Teuton and Slav in me. I have been told I look like an Aystrian or suddeutsch intellectual. The Palestinains are also of mixed bloodlines. Many are Arabs from elsewhere in the region who arrived 1916-1945 to work in one of the Middle East's most successful regions economically. Some came as far as the Balkans and the Caucasus (these are known as Circassians, but some have blended in and are indistinguishable from the rest if the Palestinians). One caim has even been made by, I believe, the Saudis, that most European Jews are descended from the Khazars, an ethnically Turkish  Jewish kingdom in Eastern Europe in the 8-900s CE. However, this is highly doubtful, as only the aristocrats and merchants converted, and the Khazars were completely scattered by the Rus and later the Mongols.

Refugees: In 1947-1948, about 750,000 Arab Palestinians left their homes and fled, mostly to Gaza, West Bank, Transjordan, Southern Lebanon, and southern Syria. Only Jordan granted these refugees citizenship. A disproportionate amount of refugees were from areas that saw little fighting, like Haifa and the old ports of Jaffa and Acre (Yafo and Akko). Many also left the Galilee, including a mass exodus from the ancient city of Tzfat (Safed), where they outnumbered the Jews 5 to 1 and were on the verge of winning a major battle before they fled en masse. Today, Tzfat is more or less 100% Jewish. Contrary to popular belief, most left not because they were evicted but because Arab leaders caled on them to temporarily evacuate to make way for the ivading Arab armies. Ben-Gurion called on them to remain in the country. At the same time as all of this, 800,000 Sephardic Jews fled to Israel because they were expelled from their home Arab countres. This is a remarkably similar number. It can be viewed as an unofficial population exchange like the Greek-Turkish and Indian-Pakistani. Unfortunately, will citizenship was given the Jewish refugees by Israel, only Hashemite Jordan extended citizenship to the Palestinians, the rest, and their descendants (in a unique corruption of intl law), were made permanent refugees and given an entire UN organization, UNRWA, to keep them as suc. Any fair final status peace accord will make the Palestinians citizens of the new Palestinian state if they want tit, and encourage third countries (presumably mostly Arab) to help handle the surplus.

Arafat: From his beginnings as founder of the PLO in 1964 (three years before Israel captured the territories), to the famous airplane hijacker of the late 60s, his attempt to overthrow his Hashemite hosts in 1970 (Black September), the Munich Olympics masssacre of 1972, to starting the Lebanese civil war and ending Araby's only democracy by killing Presdient Gemayel, Arafat has never been anything but a thug and a terror mastermind, This has continued in his new incarnation as "statesman", "peacemaker", and Nobel prize winner (sadly, no quotes around that one). As head of the PA, Arafat has suppressed all freedoms at home in the name of fighting the occupation, and has launched terrorist attacks against Israelis, mostly far beyond the Green Line in places like Tel Aviv and Haifa. Official PA maps show all of Mandate Palestine as "the Arab Republic of Palestine), and do not show all Jewish cities like Tel Aviv, but do show Arab Israeli ones like Nazareth. Arafat, as a tin pot despot and terrorist killer, has brought nothing but pain to the people he claims to represent, and has foiled peace personally. Most recently, in 2000, when he turned down all of Gaza, 97% of the West Bank, the remaining 3% made up in Israeli territory, and all of East Jerusalem except the Western Wall; instead turning to the path of war. Peace is needed, but Arafat will never be the man to make it. All Palestinains who give a darn about their country should try to find a pragmatist like Abu Mazen or Mohammed Dahlan, who will compromise and mae peace. Of course, if they do, they will be hung as collaborators in the streets by Arafat's thuggish "Security Police".

Final territorial agreement: The 1948 Green Line will not suffice as a correct boundary because of major demographic changes. Some of the settlement blocs have tens of thousands of residents and are right across the Israeli border, surely it makes sense for them to be annexed by Israel. In exchange, Israeli Arab towns in the nearby southern Galilee could be transferred to Palestinian control. As for East Jerusalem, perhaps outlying Arab-majority areas could be transferred to Palestinian control, as former Jerusalem mayor and current deputy premier Ehud Olmert has suggested? However, the Mount of Olives and the Temple Mount are sure to remain in Israel proer. Recall that East Jerusalem Arabs, unlike West Bank Arabs, can currently vote in Israli elections and have Israeli citizenship and so forth.

The fence: I support the fence as a temporary security measure, not as a final border. The US also has a fence on the Mexican border, and the Saudis on the Yemeni. The ICJ has no jurisdiction over Israel, and their ruling was at times no short of ridiculous. They claimed a state has no right of self defense against non-state actors, that a non-lethal measure was not seld-defense, and so forth. It was truly a travesty of justice. Importantly, the fence has been successful in decreasing drastically the amount of terror attacks. And it is not completed yet. Once completed, it will deprive Arafat of his only weapon, and drive him back to the negotiating table, facing considerably less favorable terms than those he wasted in 2000.

[M]

StatesRights, that is a truly terrible story, and the perpetrators of this crime are to be condemned. However, terribel things do happen in wartime; the Greco-Turkish exchange was also far from clean, not to mention what the Romans did to Carthage. Terrible as it is, not every hidtorical wrong can be undone, or you end u with a real cycle of violence. Our goal as humans should be to prevent more bad things from happening, and ISrael has a responsibility to protect its citizens from terror. After all, when an Arab man kills a Jewish baby, it does not matter if her great uncle mudered his grandmother. They are both now dead.

[M]

I have indeed heard of her. I was rather impressed with her comments yesterday that Arafat is too corrupt and thuggish, and that Abu Ala can not simply do nothing and then blame Arafat. I personally agree with you that there should eventually be a Palestinian State west of the Jordan as well as a secure and Jewish Israel; the famed "two-state" solution.

It seems we largely meet on the middle with exception to some more minor policy disputes. I hope our leaders make the same decision. The war is not giving anyone anything but pain, and it's time to find a compromise we can all live with.

[M]

There has been a lot of that. When it is done as part of an irganized military operation to root out terrorists, it is justified. Other than that, however, it is difficult for me to analyze what information the Israeli govt may have that I do not; but strictly punitive destructions are not in anyone's interest.

However, property is not the same as lives. The Israelis have indeed killed innocents over the past four years, and that is extremely regrettable. However, Israel has consistently tried to limit civilian casualties, whereas the homicide terrorists go after civilians, often specifically young children. Also, this is a war, quite unfortunately but true; and this sort of nastiness does happen in wars.

What we need is to end the war, and I believe that while Sharon has made a pragmatic turn and is willing to compromise (pulling out of Gaza, committting in principle to a Palestinian state, and so forth), Arafat has not and will not make a commitment, and those who are willing to compromise for peace (Abu Mazen, Mohammed Dahlan, possibly Abu Ala, and now apparently Hanan Ashrawi, among others) are under attack from thugs like Mussa Arafat, Yasser's first cousin, and the Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which Arafat has recently aligned himself with the against moderates inside his own Fatah.

Because of ths, Israel must continue to defend itself in the short term, hopefully using methods like the Security Fence and the Rafah Phuiladelphi Canal to limit casualties on both sides to the extent possible. In the mid to long term, Israel must work with the United States and, hopefully, the EU to sideline Arafat and his cronies and help the moderate pragmatists take over. Many of Arafat's "soft" loyalists, like Jibril Rajoub, may defect to the pragmatists if Arafat weakens significantly.

Sharon, meanwhile, must maneuver deftly to keep his centrist coalition in power. If a real right-winger takes power (yes, Sharon was one once, but is clearly not anymore), he will try to reverse the disengagement process in favor of the settlers, which would be disastrous. If a true leftist were elected, he would deal directly with Arafat, thus taking the whole region right back to 2000. So the small group around Sharon, including Ehud Olmert and Shaul Mofaz, must maintain the center's power for the forseeable future until such time as the concerned parties can return to Camp David with guns holstered and swords sheathed.

[M]

Do you consider Israeli settlers, incluing babies, infirm,  and elderly,  living across the green line military or civilian?

[M]

Well, good for you! Most Palestinians are either for hitting everything, hitting military and settlers, or hitting nothing. The distinction you draw is rare Over There.

States, are you working on your Pawns of Power AAR? Verin has already submitted his, complete with pictures.

[M]

The whole land of... Canaan, shall we say?... is beautiful. One more good reason for the fighting to end. But Arafat is not and never was after a Palestinian state, but after self-aggrandizement, destroying the Jewish state, and quite possibly fulfilling the Nasserite ideal of a greater United Arab Republic, from Western Sahara to Somalia to Hatay to Khuzestan. At an earlier time, destroying Israel really would have made that possible. Even today the Hashemite Kingdom would not last 3 days in the same world as a Canaan fully under Arafat's thumb. (Black eptember comes to mind again).

[M]

True. And of the occupied territories, only East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights have been formally annexed. The Arabs Muslims and Christians and the Armenians of Jerusalem, as well as the Golani Druze, all have full voting rights, Israeli passports, etc etc. West Bankers and Gazans do not, and Israel does not annex them because that drops the 82-18 Jewish-nonjewish demographic to around 62-38; and the nonjews as a whole and particularly Muslims have much higher birthrates. In other words, annexation is demographic suicide a la Lebanon for a Jewish Israel.

Because all other alternatives are immoral, impractical, or both, it is therefore absolutely necessary that a Palestinian state west if the Jordan be founded. Borders can be discussed in a final status agreement; the so-calles "Right of Return" is impossible because, with over 3.5 million Arabs considered Palestinian refugees by the UNRWA (clearly impossible given the original 750,000 in 1948), this is again demographic suicide. Some sort of financial compensation and resettlement within Palestine or a third country should be entirely possible.

However, the problem is finding someone to give the land "back" to. Egypt and Jordan have disavowed interest; it is assumed that an indigenous peace partner is required. However, Arafat is impossible to deal with, as his goal is not an independent Palestine but continued war and havoc, which suit his own dark goals. For this reason Israel has been forced to wall herself off (which, I think, everyone will agree is much better than continued Israeli-Palestinian street battles), assasinate the killers' masterminds (albeit with a truly unfortunate amount of innocent lives killed inadvertantly), and unilaterally remove settlements and outposts in a process referred to generally as "disengagement", though some use the term Separation cautiously. (And VERY cautiously, too- Rabbi Meir Kahane of the banned Kach political party and terror group, used Havdalah, Separation, to mean something entirely different and very nasty).

What is the ultimate result? One of two. One: that a pragmatic Palestinian leadership negotiates a final status agreement, at which point most Islamic countries recognize Israel and the Situation is at an end. (Two major outstanding points even following a Paalestinian-Israeli final status agreement: peace in the north with Syria and Lebanon; and Iran's avowed mission to eliminate the "Little Satan").

Second, and less fortunate: Palestine, as Israel unilaterally defines it, is utterly walled off. De facto an independent country, this nation claims to be under continued occupation and continues to attack Israel to the limited extent possible. Israel, for its part, considers the matter settled of necessity for the time being. The most unfortunate element here is there is no possibility of a general regional peace conference, as there would be under option one.

So, the goal for all sensibel concerned parties: Israelis, Palestinians, other Arabs, Americans, Europeans, and the UN, is to continue to sideline Arafat and try to enable the pragamtists to the degree possible. Fortunately the majority of Fatah has come to realize that Arafat has brought them only sorrow; Arafat has countered by allying with the Islamicists and even the Lebanese Hezbollah, through which he has contacts with Damascus and Tehran. The twilight struggle in Gaza and Ramallah continues.