Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 21, 2017, 12:03:11 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Please delete your old personal messages.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash, Homage to Catalonia)
| | |-+  Ireland General Discussion
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 ... 54 Print
Author Topic: Ireland General Discussion  (Read 187207 times)
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #150 on: November 24, 2007, 07:45:34 pm »
Ignore

Quote
Personally, I have significant issues with the idea of Enda Kenny (FG Leader)

Now where does one begin with this...

Quote
as Taoiseach to the point that despite everything (and believing that he should have resigned/been resigned at this stage) I feel that Ahern is probably the more preferable of the two (Shocked).

HP.

Grin I really don't like or have any faith in the competence or policy judgment of Mr. Kenny. Though, as I've said, I think that Ahern should have left/been forced out, I do think he's more competent.

Quote
(That said there are members of both parties I would preference far ahead of both Ahern and Kenny.)

I was going to 'yes': but then I couldn't think of any member of FF which I ever consider giving a preference to. Certainly none of the cabinet anyway.

Really?...I find it hard to believe you wouldn't be a big fan of the Minister for Offence Defence:


Grin

Quote
I'd also note that I've not yet 1st preferenced either a FF or FG candidate in an election; nor tended to preference either's candidates very highly where any reasonable choices were prese

That's better. Smiley. Anyway you are registered in Cavan\Monaghan so that's understandable; as the only alternative is SF.

And a variety of rag-tag Independents who usually get my vote.

Though I'd say the previous problems of Fianna Fail and coalitions mainly has to do with FF not needing one and Albert Reynolds' being an arrogant twonk (no surprise there).

No arguments about Reynolds. But Haughey wasn't enthused by coalitions either. And the heir apparant, Mr. Cowen, has made his doubts well known also.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #151 on: November 25, 2007, 04:12:42 pm »
Ignore

Unfortunely last night while I was continuing my fruitless endavours my guesswork at the what the election would look like with those poll results my connection got wiped out and has only been restored now. And I worked hard on explaining on the seats. Sad

To be lazy and do no explaination it would look like this assuming all the independents like McGrath, Gregory, et al still decide to run:
North Dublin:
DUBLIN NORTH (4) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB 1GP (LAB gain from FF)
DUBLIN WEST (4) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB 1SOC (SOC gain due to redistrubtion)
DUBLIN NORTH WEST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF; but more likely to be an SF gain but not on those poll numbers.)
DUBLIN NORTH EAST(3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (no change)
DUBLIN CENTRAL (4) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB 1IND (FG gain from FF)
DUBLIN NORTH CENTRAL (3) - 1FF 1FG 1IND (no change)
KILDARE NORTH (4) - Murphy gains from FF if she runs; if not no change - 2FF 1FG 1LAB (no change)
KILDARE SOUTH (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)
MEATH EAST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (LAB gain from FF - In saying that some of the major Labour voting areas have been moved into Louth around the Drogheda suburbs; Either way FF loses one and either FG or LAB gains)
MEATH WEST (3) - 2FF 1FG (No change though possible SF gain here)
LOUTH (5) - 2FF 2FG 1SF (FG gain due to redistrubtion)
WICKLOW (5) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB 1GP (GP gain from FF)
WEXFORD (5) - 2FF 2FG 1LAB (no change; I think)
CARLOW-KILKENNY (5) - 2FF 2FG 1GP (FG gain from FF)
LAOIS-OFFALY (5) - With Cowan Taoiseach? 3FF 2FG (no change)
LONGFORD-WESTMEATH (4) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)
CAVAN-MONAGHAN (5) - 2FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF due to the removal of O'Hanlon as CC.)
DONEGAL SOUTH WEST (3) - 2FF 1FG (no change; but possible SF gain from FF)
DONEGAL NORTH EAST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1SF (SF gain from FF)
SLIGO-NORTH LEITRIM (3) - 1FF 2FG (FG gain from FF)
ROSCOMMON-SOUTH LEITRIM (3) - 1FF 2FG (no change)
MAYO (5) - 2FF\FF("IND), 3FG (no change, at least in seats per party anyway.)
GALWAY WEST (5) - 2FF 1FG 1LAB 1GP (GP gain from FF - Counting Grealish as FF.)
GALWAY EAST (4) - 2FF 2FG (no change)
CLARE (4) - 2FF 2FG (no change)
TIPPERARY NORTH (3) - 1FF 1FG 1IND (no change)
TIPPERARY SOUTH (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (LAB gain from FF; depends on whether or not Healy runs again.)
WATERFORD (4) - 2FF 1FG 1LAB (no change)
CORK EAST (4) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)
CORK NORTH CENTRAL (4) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)
CORK SOUTH CENTRAL (5) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB 1GP (GP gain from FF)
CORK SOUTH WEST (3) - 1FF 2FG (no change)
CORK NORTH WEST (3) - 1FF 2FG (FG gain from FF)
KERRY SOUTH (3) - 2FF 1FG (FG gain from IND due to O'Donaghue being CC)
KERRY NORTH & LIMERICK WEST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1SF (No change from Kerry North; would probably result in a different FF TD though)
LIMERICK (3) - 1FF 2FG (FG gain from FF if using the old Limerick West boundaries)
LIMERICK CITY (4) - 2FF 1FG 1LAB (FG lose seat due to boundary changes; otherwise no change.)

So that leaves: FF\PD 60 (-20) FG 65 (+14) LAB 25 (+5) SF 5 (+1) GP 7 (+1) SOC 1 (+1) IND 3 (-1)

« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 06:31:13 pm by Got Ireland? »Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #152 on: November 25, 2007, 04:13:43 pm »
Ignore

Quote
No arguments about Reynolds. But Haughey wasn't enthused by coalitions either. And the heir apparant, Mr. Cowen, has made his doubts well known also.

Coalitions make things (slightly) more accountable; so I think saying Haughey, Cowen, et al are opposed to them is the stating the obvious just a little bit.
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #153 on: November 25, 2007, 04:14:55 pm »
Ignore

Quote
No arguments about Reynolds. But Haughey wasn't enthused by coalitions either. And the heir apparant, Mr. Cowen, has made his doubts well known also.

Coalitions make things (slightly) more accountable; so I think saying Haughey, Cowen, et al are opposed to them is the stating the obvious just a little bit.

Ah, but then explain Ahern's pro-coalition stance!

(Check!)
Logged
minionofmidas - supplemental forum account
Lewis Trondheim
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 58547
India


View Profile
« Reply #154 on: November 25, 2007, 04:20:03 pm »
Ignore

Quote
No arguments about Reynolds. But Haughey wasn't enthused by coalitions either. And the heir apparant, Mr. Cowen, has made his doubts well known also.

Coalitions make things (slightly) more accountable; so I think saying Haughey, Cowen, et al are opposed to them is the stating the obvious just a little bit.

Ah, but then explain Ahern's pro-coalition stance!

(Check!)
Cheesy
Logged

If I'm shown as having been active here recently it's either because I've been using the gallery, because I've been using the search engine looking up something from way back, or because I've been reading the most excellent UK by-elections thread again.
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #155 on: November 25, 2007, 04:21:01 pm »
Ignore

Quote
No arguments about Reynolds. But Haughey wasn't enthused by coalitions either. And the heir apparant, Mr. Cowen, has made his doubts well known also.

Coalitions make things (slightly) more accountable; so I think saying Haughey, Cowen, et al are opposed to them is the stating the obvious just a little bit.

Ah, but then explain Ahern's pro-coalition stance!

(Check!)

Because we all know at heart Bertie is just a cheeky chappy from Drumcondra; a court jester so to speak. No matter what he does he is just good ol' Bertie, always one of the lads; so even if he killed live puppies with acid in front of crippled orphans he would still always be loved. Cowen on the other hand looks like the aul' fellow at the back of the pub who always watches the TV in order to shout out "Wat 'tis dis sh**te on de Tellleeeeee!" and look permantently annoyed.

Therefore as long as Bertie sounds like "one of the lads" then he can bypass the whole accountability thing. Cowen can't.
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
minionofmidas - supplemental forum account
Lewis Trondheim
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 58547
India


View Profile
« Reply #156 on: November 25, 2007, 04:42:23 pm »
Ignore

Quote
No arguments about Reynolds. But Haughey wasn't enthused by coalitions either. And the heir apparant, Mr. Cowen, has made his doubts well known also.

Coalitions make things (slightly) more accountable; so I think saying Haughey, Cowen, et al are opposed to them is the stating the obvious just a little bit.

Ah, but then explain Ahern's pro-coalition stance!

(Check!)

Because we all know at heart Bertie is just a cheeky chappy from Drumcondra; a court jester so to speak. No matter what he does he is just good ol' Bertie, always one of the lads; so even if he killed live puppies with acid in front of crippled orphans he would still always be loved.
What if he killed live orphans with acid in front of crippled puppies?
Logged

If I'm shown as having been active here recently it's either because I've been using the gallery, because I've been using the search engine looking up something from way back, or because I've been reading the most excellent UK by-elections thread again.
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #157 on: November 25, 2007, 04:52:17 pm »
Ignore

Quote
No arguments about Reynolds. But Haughey wasn't enthused by coalitions either. And the heir apparant, Mr. Cowen, has made his doubts well known also.

Coalitions make things (slightly) more accountable; so I think saying Haughey, Cowen, et al are opposed to them is the stating the obvious just a little bit.

Ah, but then explain Ahern's pro-coalition stance!

(Check!)

Because we all know at heart Bertie is just a cheeky chappy from Drumcondra; a court jester so to speak. No matter what he does he is just good ol' Bertie, always one of the lads; so even if he killed live puppies with acid in front of crippled orphans he would still always be loved.
What if he killed live orphans with acid in front of crippled puppies?


Five point boost in the points - Twenty points in Meath. Those Damn Orphans are probably scobes (scumbags) anyway; what with their poor, cheap clothes and working class accents.
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #158 on: November 26, 2007, 09:26:07 am »
Ignore

DUBLIN NORTH (4) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB 1GP (LAB gain from FF)

Agree

DUBLIN WEST (4) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB 1SOC (SOC gain due to redistrubtion)

Agree

DUBLIN NORTH WEST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF; but more likely to be an SF gain but not on those poll numbers.)

1 FF; 1 Lab almost certainly. The third would be hard to call between FG and SF and even FF couldn't be fully and completely ruled out. I suspect SF would be favourites, just about.

Call: FF 1; Lab 1; SF 1 (SF gain from FF).

DUBLIN NORTH EAST(3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (no change)

Agree

DUBLIN CENTRAL (4) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB 1IND (FG gain from FF)

Agree

DUBLIN NORTH CENTRAL (3) - 1FF 1FG 1IND (no change)

Hesitant agree - McGrath's numbers could do anything. Labour or the Greens could sneak it if transfers went well.

KILDARE NORTH (4) - Murphy gains from FF if she runs; if not no change - 2FF 1FG 1LAB (no change)

Agree on the call. Don't see Murphy running again, nor taking the seat under any normal circumstances even if she did.

KILDARE SOUTH (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)

Agree

MEATH EAST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (LAB gain from FF - In saying that some of the major Labour voting areas have been moved into Louth around the Drogheda suburbs; Either way FF loses one and either FG or LAB gains)

Agree

MEATH WEST (3) - 2FF 1FG (No change though possible SF gain here)

Tend to agree. Don't see SF picking this up as a 3-seater though, just too many transfers required. Probably FG actually ending up putting most genuine pressure on the second FF seat though would require good transfers from increased Lab and Green voters.

LOUTH (5) - 2FF 2FG 1SF (FG gain due to redistrubtion)

Agree, though the Greens could cause an upset and snatch either the 2nd FG or SF seat.

WICKLOW (5) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB 1GP (GP gain from FF)

Agree

WEXFORD (5) - 2FF 2FG 1LAB (no change; I think)

Agree. Possibly the most stable constituency in the country in recent times.

CARLOW-KILKENNY (5) - 2FF 2FG 1GP (FG gain from FF)

Run 1 good Labour candidate and I'd put it down as a Lab gain from FG. If not then, I agree with your call.

LAOIS-OFFALY (5) - With Cowan Taoiseach? 3FF 2FG (no change)

Agree

LONGFORD-WESTMEATH (4) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)

Agree

CAVAN-MONAGHAN (5) - 2FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF due to the removal of O'Hanlon as CC.)

I'll presume that you meant SF instead of Lab, in which case agree.

DONEGAL SOUTH WEST (3) - 2FF 1FG (no change; but possible SF gain from FF)

Disagree. FF couldn't sustain 2 seats on this type of swing - not with SF so close now.
Call: FF 1; FG 1; SF 1 (SF gain from FF)

DONEGAL NORTH EAST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1SF (SF gain from FF)

Disagree. Close, but I think FF would hold their 2 here.
Call: FF 2; FG 1 (Unchanged)

SLIGO-NORTH LEITRIM (3) - 1FF 2FG (FG gain from FF)

Agree

ROSCOMMON-SOUTH LEITRIM (3) - 1FF 2FG (no change)

Agree

MAYO (5) - 2FF\FF("IND), 3FG (no change, at least in seats per party anyway.)

Agree

GALWAY WEST (5) - 2FF 1FG 1LAB 1GP (GP gain from FF - Counting Grealish as FF.)

Agree

GALWAY EAST (4) - 2FF 2FG (no change)

Agree

CLARE (4) - 2FF 2FG (no change)

Tentative agree. Greens could maybe take the 2nd FF seat in this scenario.

TIPPERARY NORTH (3) - 1FF 1FG 1IND (no change)

Agree. Though Lab taking the FG seat wouldn't be impossible here.

TIPPERARY SOUTH (3) - 1FF 1FG 1LAB (LAB gain from FF; depends on whether or not Healy runs again.)

Agree

WATERFORD (4) - 2FF 1FG 1LAB (no change)

Agree

CORK EAST (4) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)

Certainly FF 1; Fg 1; Lab 1. Green voters become the kingmakers as to the final seat between FF and FG. Porbably FG so. Agree.

CORK NORTH CENTRAL (4) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB (FG gain from FF)

Agree (unless FF pull off particularly good vote management).

CORK SOUTH CENTRAL (5) - 1FF 2FG 1LAB 1GP (GP gain from FF)

Disagree. Should be FF 2; FG 2 and a tossup between Labour and the Greens for the last, which will depend on transfers.
Call: FF 2; FG 2; Lab 1 (Unchanged)

CORK SOUTH WEST (3) - 1FF 2FG (no change)

Agree

CORK NORTH WEST (3) - 1FF 2FG (FG gain from FF)

Agree

KERRY SOUTH (3) - 2FF 1FG (FG gain from IND due to O'Donaghue being CC)

Agree with call. (But that's technically a FF gain from Ind)

KERRY NORTH & LIMERICK WEST (3) - 1FF 1FG 1SF (No change from Kerry North; would probably result in a different FF TD though)

Agree

LIMERICK (3) - 1FF 2FG (FG gain from FF if using the old Limerick West boundaries)

Agree

LIMERICK CITY (4) - 2FF 1FG 1LAB (FG lose seat due to boundary changes; otherwise no change.)

Disagree. Should be 1 FF and 2 FG with the final seat between FF and Lab. Green (and ex-PD) voters very important in deciding outcome. Hard to say, put I think FF would shade it.
Call: 2 FF; 2 FG (Lab lose to boundary change)
Logged
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #159 on: November 26, 2007, 09:39:23 am »
Ignore

So that leaves: FF\PD 60 (-20) FG 65 (+14) LAB 25 (+5) SF 5 (+1) GP 7 (+1) SOC 1 (+1) IND 3 (-1)

My total: FF 61; FG 63; Lab 23; Green 8; SF 7; Soc 1; Ind 3
Likely govt: FG/Lab coalition (majority of 5 or 7 depending on who is elected CC).
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #160 on: November 26, 2007, 10:21:48 am »
Ignore

Yeah that Cavan\Monaghan and Kerry South predictions were brain farts (or perhaps wishing thinking, who knows?).

Quote
Agree. Possibly the most stable constituency in the country in recent times.

The whole South East is bad at it.
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #161 on: November 27, 2007, 06:37:02 am »
Ignore

Fine Gael, Labour and Sinn Féin have all sought to put down motions of no confidence in the Minister for Health Mary Harney (PD-Dublin MW). They will almost certainly be trumped by the Government putting down it's own motion of confidence in her.

Despite equivication in the comments of Independents Finian McGrath (Ind-Dublin NC) and Jackie Healy Rae (Ind-Kerry S); the government should hold firm with its safe majority.

However, rogue FF TD Ned O'Keefe (FF-Cork E) yesterday called on Harney to resign over the recent cancer screening controversy. Today, it's been made clear that the government (or at least FF) expects all its members to back Harney on pain of losing the whip. O'Keefe has already this term failed to back the government on important votes notably absenting himself to his constituency.

So, we have something of a showdown and could have our first change in the make-up of the 30th Dáil. Stay tuned...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 07:01:13 am by Jas »Logged
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #162 on: November 28, 2007, 04:58:15 pm »
Ignore

As expected the Government amended the proposed motion of no confidence and carried their own vote, 83-73.

Unexpectedly however rebel TD, Ned O'Keefe (Cork E), resigned from the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party before the votes were called this evening. O'Keefe said he couldn't vote against the Labour motion (he abstained) but could approve the Government motion because it didn't explicitly endorse the work of the Minister for Health Mary Harney.

Anyway...tonight the composition of the Dáil has changed, so that it is now:
Fianna Fáil76(-1)
Fine Gael51
Labour20
Greens6
Sinn Féin4
Progressive Democrats2
Independents6(+1)
Ceann Comhairle1

Government (FF; Grn; PD; Inds)88
Opposition (FG; Lab; SF; Inds)77
Majority11(-2)

O'Keefe has a been a FF TD for Cork East since 1982 and has retained a solid, reliable vote there ever since. While it's hard to call many Independent seats as 'safe', O'Keefe would have to be seen as in a strong position to hold onto the seat should he wish to in upcoming elections.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 05:02:25 pm by Jas »Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #163 on: December 02, 2007, 07:26:13 pm »
Ignore

Best. Blog. Post. EVER

http://thatsireland.com/2007/11/05/fianna-fails-fifty-ways-to-laugh-at-voters/#more-677

P.S: Support Digout Day! (see sig)
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #164 on: December 03, 2007, 09:45:31 am »
Ignore


Mmm...

Seems to me the voters are happy enough to laugh along...the vast majority of the matters in the list were well known prior to the election and yet FF were returned with roughly the same proportion of votes as last time.

To me, the more interesting side to all this is not that FF have been involved in all this, but that the voters have implicitly accepted the behaviour and/or FF's response to it.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #165 on: December 03, 2007, 09:57:12 am »
Ignore


Mmm...

Seems to me the voters are happy enough to laugh along...the vast majority of the matters in the list were well known prior to the election and yet FF were returned with roughly the same proportion of votes as last time.

To me, the more interesting side to all this is not that FF have been involved in all this, but that the voters have implicitly accepted the behaviour and/or FF's response to it.

I never said they didn't. As a matter of fact that is what I have always maintained. Haven't I quoted it before "There is nothing wrong with Fianna Fail that isn't wrong with Ireland, and there isn't anything wrong with Ireland that isn't wrong with Fianna Fail"?

I just found the link Amusing.
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Hash
Hashemite
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31745
Colombia



View Profile WWW
« Reply #166 on: December 03, 2007, 10:46:01 am »

I'll wear black that day for sure Smiley
Logged



17:40   oakvale   the people are bad and shouldn't be allowed vote whenever possible
17:40   oakvale   The average voter wants to end austerity, bring back hanging and put all immigrants in death
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #167 on: December 03, 2007, 12:21:34 pm »
Ignore


Mmm...

Seems to me the voters are happy enough to laugh along...the vast majority of the matters in the list were well known prior to the election and yet FF were returned with roughly the same proportion of votes as last time.

To me, the more interesting side to all this is not that FF have been involved in all this, but that the voters have implicitly accepted the behaviour and/or FF's response to it.

I never said they didn't. As a matter of fact that is what I have always maintained. Haven't I quoted it before "There is nothing wrong with Fianna Fail that isn't wrong with Ireland, and there isn't anything wrong with Ireland that isn't wrong with Fianna Fail"?

I just found the link Amusing.

I wasn't saying that you said/implied/felt differently - I was just giving my own thoughts.

I'm just saying I think that this blogger's anger is at least somewhat misdirected.
The people have spoken...they don't care.

(I actually think it's quite remarkable that politics has cleaned up as much as it has in the past 20 or so years given just how often the public are willing to re-elect some of these people.)
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #168 on: December 03, 2007, 12:34:46 pm »
Ignore

Quote
I wasn't saying that you said/implied/felt differently - I was just giving my own thoughts.

I'm just saying I think that this blogger's anger is at least somewhat misdirected.
The people have spoken...they don't care.

(I actually think it's quite remarkable that politics has cleaned up as much as it has in the past 20 or so years given just how often the public are willing to re-elect some of these people.)

I actually tend to agree with that second bit. Actually I reckon the tone of blog is at times so very shrill it reminds people of what is so common about a certain crowd of Irish political commentators who seem to exist to remind people of their own self-importance (not that this blogger nor more Importantly, I - am ever that shrill. Tongue). Just a needed reminder.

Btw, what gives your assertion that politics is much more clean than 20 years ago? (Not hard it has to be said.) Apart from the fact that we all KNOW that corruptions is going on\has gone on and o\c the laborious tribunals. 
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #169 on: December 03, 2007, 03:21:31 pm »
Ignore

Actually I reckon the tone of blog is at times so very shrill it reminds people of what is so common about a certain crowd of Irish political commentators who seem to exist to remind people of their own self-importance

Agree

Btw, what gives your assertion that politics is much more clean than 20 years ago? (Not hard it has to be said.) Apart from the fact that we all KNOW that corruptions is going on\has gone on and o\c the laborious tribunals. 

Good question and my answer is that I'm not sure.
The biggest single factors are the ongoing work of the Tribunals and the continuous revelatory work of the Revenue Commissioners in detecting tax defaulters.

The jailing of the likes of Burke; Lawlor; and Fahy; and the emergence in public of the shenanigans of Haughey; Ahern; Lowry; Flynn, etc. help form the opinion also.

These things together with what I would perceive as at least a more aware (if not properly investigative) media; something (though nowhere near where it should be) of a change in public attitudes; the increased focus on the actions of local councils when it comes to issues such as rezoning; the changed working behaviours of banks; and general instinct.

In general there's more light now shining on politicians at local and national level.

There has been very serious, high level investigations into corrupt politicians ongoing for some time now, but little of it concerns say the last 10 years, and almost none of it the last 5.

Somewhere from these things, doth my opinions emerge. Whether or not it amounts to a hill of beans...well that depends on your point of view.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #170 on: December 05, 2007, 04:08:28 pm »
Ignore

@Jas: Did you read the Tribune on Sunday? In particular the article on the relationship between Albert Reynolds, John Ellis (Ex-FF TD for Leitrim) and Pakistan?

There was a whole section of articles dedicated to attacking to FF. And while it was typically sensationalistic, I have to say if half the stuff there is true...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 04:53:51 pm by Brown Envelope »Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #171 on: December 05, 2007, 05:03:01 pm »
Ignore

@Jas: Did read the Tribune on Sunday. In particular the article on the relationship between Albert Reynolds, John Ellis (Ex-FF TD for Leitrim) and Pakistan?

There was a whole section of articles dedicated to attacking to FF. And while it was typically sensationalistic, I have to say if half the stuff there is true...

Long time since I went to the bother of getting a Sunday paper (it's not hard to be disenchanted at the choice on offer)...so, no 'fraid I know nothing of the Turbine's reportage of late...but do feel free to enlighten.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #172 on: December 06, 2007, 05:29:44 am »
Ignore

@Jas: Did read the Tribune on Sunday. In particular the article on the relationship between Albert Reynolds, John Ellis (Ex-FF TD for Leitrim) and Pakistan?

There was a whole section of articles dedicated to attacking to FF. And while it was typically sensationalistic, I have to say if half the stuff there is true...

Long time since I went to the bother of getting a Sunday paper (it's not hard to be disenchanted at the choice on offer)...so, no 'fraid I know nothing of the Turbine's reportage of late...but do feel free to enlighten.

I tend to agree with you on Sunday papers; even The Sunday Times isn't much; except the Culture section and Brian Appleyard. I read this just yesterday when I was in the NUIM library skiving off studying preparing for some work.

Found it here:

Quote
THE name of Fianna Fail does not trip lightly off everyday conversation in downtown Karachi.

They have enough political intrigue of their own in Pakistan to occupy the chattering salons, what with the Supreme Court being emasculated and the media decimated under emergency rule.

But, in the week when president Pervez Musharraf finally climbed out of his general's uniform, Fianna Fail's links with the south Asian nuclear power grew ever more fascinating.

"I haven't been in Pakistan for a lifetime nearly, " replied the Taoiseach's Seanad nominee John Ellis, when asked about his directorship of a nowdefunct bank in Karachi. In response to an enquiry if Albert Reynolds had ever told him about Reynolds' history-making relationship with Musharraf, Ellis asked: "No. Why would he?"

"Because you're friends."

"It's still being said that we're very close friends. That's newspapers for you . . . tomorrow's fish 'n' chips. We would be political friends. That'd be the height of it, " said the Leitrim senator.

"We're neighbours as well. Our counties are beside each other and I've a lot of his relations living near me."

In recent radio interviews on RTE and Today FM, former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds recounted his kingmaking role in extolling Musharraf 's credentials to an initially hostile White House after a bloodless military coup in Pakistan in 1999.

"A business associate of mine invited me to travel there, to go and see him [Musharraf ] and to talk about becoming his consultant, his advisor, " said Reynolds, who was still a TD for Longford-Westmeath at the time of these events. According to the former Fianna Fail leader, he rang US president Bill Clinton on his private phone and arranged to meet him in Washington. At that meeting, Reynolds assured Clinton that, despite a US policy of not supporting leaders of coups d'etat, Musharraf could be trusted.

He said that on the night of 9/11, Musharraf rang Reynolds at his home in Dublin and asked him to inform the US that he would be "their number-one supporter". On another occasion, the Pakistani dictator invited the former Taoiseach to broker peace in Kashmir and, though that exercise was not realised, Clinton's successor, George W Bush, refers to Musharraf as "my buddy" to this day.

Reynolds said he has travelled to Pakistan three times. He was the Irish government's delegate to an international donors' conference in the capital, Islamabad, in November 2005, after a 7.6-magnitude earthquake in the north of the country the previous month.

Five-star Sheraton Hotel He returned six months later, in May 2006, to deliver a speech entitled 'Competitiveness Strategies: Lessons Learned from Ireland' at a conference organised by the Pakistani government and financed by the US Agency for International Development. He was made honorary chairman of the Ireland-Pakistan Business Council when it was launched in Dublin in November 2005. In an address to the council in November last year, Reynolds described Musharraf as "a courageous person" who deserved to be at the helm of Pakistan.

Pakistan is the sixth most populous country on earth, with the world's second-largest Muslim population. Not the sort of place one expects to bump into a distant neighbour from back home. But at the time of Reynolds' first trip to the country . . . the one when he was introduced to Musharraf . . . another Fianna Fail backbencher was already a frequent visitor to Karachi.

Farmer and failed meat-factory owner John Ellis was a founding director of Indus Bank, a private bank established in the Peshawar province in 1992.

(continued...)
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 12738
Ireland, Republic of


View Profile
« Reply #173 on: December 06, 2007, 05:30:39 am »
Ignore

Here is the rest...

Quote
His wife, Patricia, an accountant, was also on the bank's board. Whenever John Ellis flew to Karachi for a bank meeting he was accommodated in the five-star Sheraton Hotel and accorded the normal courtesies extended to a member of a foreign parliament. In 1999, the last year it traded, Indus Bank was listed 17th in the Banker's Almanac and had total assets of about $59m before Musharraf 's military coup.

Ellis and his two brothers had seen the collapse of their meat factory in Donegal a decade earlier, leaving creditor farmers unpaid in the northwest of Ireland. In December 1989, Charlie Haughey, then Taoiseach of a Fianna Fail/PD coalition with a majority of one Dail seat, gave Ellis £12,400 from the party leader's account to cancel out bankruptcy proceedings initiated against him by Manorhamilton Mart.

Around the same time, National Irish Bank wrote off a £260,000 debt, sparking a flurry of allegations in the Dail about possible Fianna Fail influence in the bank's decision. John Ellis issued a public statement saying he did not have the wherewithal to discharge the debt and that he was acutely conscious of the fragility of the government's majority; knowing that, if declared bankrupt, he would lose his Dail seat.

He said he informed the then minister for finance, Albert Reynolds, of his predicament and added: "I understand that at the same time, Albert Reynolds was informing the bank of my dire circumstances and, in effect, pleaded for leniency for me." Reynolds denied having interceded on his behalf and the bank's boss, Jim Lacey, confirmed that the finance minister had not made representations to him on behalf of Ellis.

Less than two years after that controversy, John Ellis was invited to sit on the inaugural board of Indus Bank in November 1991 by its chairman, Khurshid Sohail. Ellis has said he first met Sohail in 1980 when the Karachi-businessman came to Ireland scouting for an investment in the textile industry.

According to Shahid Izbal, a financial journalist with Pakistan's biggest-selling Englishlanguage newspaper, Dawn, the application for the banking licence was made by Sohail's brother, Tariq Sohail, then a leading member of Benazir Bhutto's People's Party.

It was reported one of Ellis's fellow directors in the Indus Bank was Haroon Rashid Kahlon, a recipient of one of the 11 passports-for-sale infamously processed by former justice minister Ray Burke and personally handed over to Sheikh Khalid bin Mahfouz by Charlie Haughey in his house, Abbeville, on a Saturday in December 1990.

The Saudi-born sheikh, one of the world's richest men, with banks in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and oil interests in the US and the Middle East and a brother-in-law of Osama bin Laden, undertook to invest £20m in various Irish businesses in return for naturalisation. Kerry Airport and Butler Engineering, owned by a supporter of Fianna Fail, were among the beneficiaries.

Political instability Sheikh bin Mahfouz is accused by name in a trillion-dollar lawsuit filed by families of 9/11 victims, alleging he financed alQaida. In the early 1990s he and Kahlon, the Indus Bank director, were investigated in the US for an attempt to defraud the Bank of Credit & Commerce International (BCCI) customers of $10bn. The charges against them were dropped in a pleabargaining arrangement that required them to pay $225m in compensation. The Department of Foreign Affairs has confirmed the men's Irish passports have never been revoked.

Meanwhile, back in Karachi, Indus Bank was floundering by the late 1990s. Pakistan has only had independence for 60 years and decades of political instability had taken their toll on the economy. Despite a current upturn in the economy, a recent report by the Asian Development Bank described Pakistan as a country with "poor governance, endemic corruption and social indicators that are among the worst in Asia".

Conditions were exacerbated by the imposition of US and NATO economic sanctions in 1998 after the country carried out nuclear tests. Amid this turmoil, Indus Bank became the first Pakistani bank to have its licence withdrawn, following an investigation by the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP). On foot of a formal complaint by the SBP, the chairman, Khurshid Sohail, was arrested on 30 October 2000 and accused of siphoning off bank deposits of more than 1.6m. He was also charged with illegally obtaining loans from Indus Bank in the names of various companies for his personal use. Sohail's son was among three of his co-accused.

John and Patricia Ellis, as directors, were named as corespondents in the early proceedings, though there was never a suspicion of wrongdoing by them. Legal documentation claimed their appointments were "of no legal effect" and that they had been brought in by Sohail despite their apparent lack of banking experience. The case was prosecuted under the National Accountability Bill (NAB), an autonomous wing of the army created by Musharraf, and Sohail was released on 20 December 2002 on two bail bonds of five million rupees ( 56,000) each.

While the denouement of the Indus Bank was in train, a row broke out back in Dail Eireann concerning "a murky tale" of a new honorary consul's appointment in Pakistan. The previous consul, Nadeem Bag, had sued the Irish government for his dismissal in 1998 and his case was settled out of court. He claimed he was sacked after preparing a report for the Department of Foreign Affairs on the Indus Bank affair. In a High Court affidavit, Beg described the bank's chairman, Khurshid Sohail as "a controversial character who does not enjoy a good reputation".

After Beg's dismissal, the Irish ambassador in Tehran (which also covers Pakistan) interviewed 12 candidates seeking the honorary position but the man who finally got the job, Hasib Ahsan, was not one of them. It emerged in a Dail debate on 26 October 2000 that he had been appointed on the recommendation of Fianna Fail backbencher John Ellis. Calling for an examination of the appointment by the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Fine Gael's Jim O'Keeffe claimed Ahsan was "a friend and associate of Mr Sohail". (The joint committee never did investigate the appointment. ) Since then, John Ellis lost his Dail seat in the May general election and was appointed to the Seanad last summer by the Taoiseach as one of his 11 nominees.

Just over seven years since the collapse of the Indus Bank, he told the Sunday Tribune he had not been in Pakistan in 20 years and described as "more bull" the allegation that he recommended Ahsan for the honorary consul's job.

"I never had any direct dealings there, " he said.

"But you were a director of the Indus Bank?"

"I had resigned years before anything happened, " said Ellis.

"The owners and directors were all exonerated."

And Khurshid Sohail?

"He was fully vindicated."

Back in Pakistan, journalist Shahid Izbal begs to differ. "I don't think that is correct. Mr Sohail got out of jail five years ago and left Pakistan. His whereabouts are unknown."

A little Dubious no doubt (why would Musharraf call Reynolds, of all people, after 9\11?) but still...
Logged



Quote
Keith R Laws ‏@Keith_Laws  Feb 4
As I have noted before 'paradigm shift' is an anagram of 'grasp dim faith'
Јas
Jas
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10150
Zambia


View Profile
« Reply #174 on: December 06, 2007, 07:17:36 am »
Ignore

Well, that's...weird. Not sure what to make of it. (Particularly the idea that Reynolds could make one iota of difference to US policy on Pakistan.)
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 ... 54 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines