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Author Topic: Schroeder quits as party leader  (Read 18755 times)
12th Doctor
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2004, 08:32:56 pm »

What is the CDU platform?  I tried their site, but there is no translation to Elglish.  Funny, I wish I would have got better grades in my German classes.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2004, 08:50:44 pm »

What is the CDU platform?  I tried their site, but there is no translation to Elglish.  Funny, I wish I would have got better grades in my German classes.

Germans dub everything, including the Simpsons and Nanny. Scary really. I think it's a major factor to lower level of English in many European countries. CDU is paternal conservatives, but I'll let Lewis do the details... Smiley
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jaichind
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2004, 08:58:22 pm »

What is the CDU platform?  I tried their site, but there is no translation to Elglish.  Funny, I wish I would have got better grades in my German classes.

Germans dub everything, including the Simpsons and Nanny. Scary really. I think it's a major factor to lower level of English in many European countries. CDU is paternal conservatives, but I'll let Lewis do the details... Smiley

I know.  I spent some time in Germany a couple of years ago and I remember they dubbed "King of the Hill."  That pretty much took away half the humor value of show as viewers were deprived the various Texas accents.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2004, 09:11:10 pm »

What is the CDU platform?  I tried their site, but there is no translation to Elglish.  Funny, I wish I would have got better grades in my German classes.

 CDU is paternal conservatives, but I'll let Lewis do the details... Smiley

I figured as much, but are they for or against the US on the Iraq issue?  Are they for lower or higher taxes, etc?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2004, 09:44:20 pm »

What is the CDU platform?  I tried their site, but there is no translation to Elglish.  Funny, I wish I would have got better grades in my German classes.

 CDU is paternal conservatives, but I'll let Lewis do the details... Smiley

I figured as much, but are they for or against the US on the Iraq issue?  Are they for lower or higher taxes, etc?

Lower taxes I am fairly sure. I don't know a lot about Iraq, but I THINK that they were sort of opposed to it.
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2004, 11:30:22 pm »

First Stoiber bascially supported it when he was leading. When Schroeder started to play the anti-American card and it was working, he said he could only support it if we got UN approval.
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2004, 12:59:05 am »

Stoiber tried to hide the fact that he didn't have any opinion on it and not the slightest inkling of why the Americans might want to go into Iraq. He didn't want to say yes because that would have angered the moderates and didn't want to say no because that would have angered the ideologists, many of whom are almost religiously pro-AMerican on foreign policy issues(though at the same time many of the very same people are easily the most anti-American in terms of "regional" prejudices). So he was caught in a bind there. I remember him saying something very like "Well, can't we decide this when it becomes really urgent, ie after the Election?" during the televised debate. (There were two debates, the first ones ever, and I only saw the second one.)
The CDU voters were and still are bitterly divided on the Iraq war, with a majority against.
Yes, they are nominally for lower taxes and for cutting subsidies, but they stop short of allowing any cuts in subsidies to those who don't need them. They pretty much block any kind of reform, demand one thing then block it the next year when Schroeder takes it up. The German constitution makes this easy, but it's extremely destructive of course.
As per 14 polls... there are state polls in Hamburg on 29th Feb, European Elections and state polls in Thuringia on 13th June, state polls in the Saarland on September fifth and in Brandenburg and Sachsen on 19th September. All the others would have to be local elections I reckon, which are not very important.
Of those state polls, Brandenburg is the only one where the SPD is currently at the helm, so they don't really have anything to lose. 1999 was another anno horribilis for the Social Democrats, after all.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2004, 04:57:15 am »

1999 was also pretty bleak for the SPD...

Why is the CDU blocking things that they would normally agree to?
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me...
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2004, 06:43:28 am »

I think at the root of the problem is a basic incapacity among many on the German Right to accept the fact that they are not the majority and they don't own the country. Add a topping of strategy to that (demoralizing the enemy helps winning state polls), and that's what I think is going on.
But when I said they demand one thing and then block it, it's usually minor things. For example:
There was a reform in the Tax Code that was going to be implemented in stages. I think the second stage was two years after the first. Hessen's CM Roland Koch very publicly demanded in 2002 that the second stage be rescheduled to one year earlier to provide relief to tax payers because of the economic downturn. Some months later, Schroeder had the same idea, and Koch led the succesful fight against it in the Bundesrat, because - and he was kind of right in that - part of the revenue lost would have been lost by the states rather than the Bund, and they couldn't afford it because of the Economic downturn. See what I mean?
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2004, 06:54:05 am »

Yeesssss... but it's still morally wrong...
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Michael Z
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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2004, 07:28:35 am »

As per 14 polls... there are state polls in Hamburg on 29th Feb, European Elections and state polls in Thuringia on 13th June, state polls in the Saarland on September fifth and in Brandenburg and Sachsen on 19th September. All the others would have to be local elections I reckon, which are not very important.

We may well see a change in Saxony. Apparently Milbradt himself secretly expects a SPD-PDS coalition to beat the CDU. The Hamburg elections should be interesting, especially now that the whole Schill soap opera is finally over and done with.

Btw, about Clement: I always thought he was a bit of a Chancellor-in-the-making? Or at least that's how the media seem to portay him.
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« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2004, 07:30:41 am »

The media, the media...
Well, they made Schroeder chancellor, so maybe I shouldn't write it off.
But Clement is older than Schroeder and his relations with the Green party are. or at least were when he was CM of NRW, more than a bit strained. So I doubt it.
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« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2004, 08:27:00 am »

According to the Spiegel, when Schroeder announced his decision in some leadership circle, Clement was the only one who tried to argue against it. He seems not to like the increase in power of his former colleague at the NRW cabinet table...
Also, the General Secretary of the SPD Olaf Scholz has also been sacked (yeah, asked to resign). He will be replaced by Klaus Uwe Benneter. Benneter once was a far leftie, in fact he was expelled from the SPD in 1977 and readmitted in 1983. He seems to be quite close to Schroeder though. He's not exactly well known, I don't know why they chose him. Anyway, he too ,like Muentefering will take over sometime in march.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2004, 08:34:21 am »

Yeesssss... but it's still morally wrong...


What you mean, morally? This is Politics.
And do not be led to a wrong conclusion by that "Christian" in the name.

Does Germany have a Trades Description Act?
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« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2004, 08:36:48 am »

Yeesssss... but it's still morally wrong...


What you mean, morally? This is Politics.
And do not be led to a wrong conclusion by that "Christian" in the name.

Does Germany have a Trades Description Act?

I'm not sure it's applied to political parties...Anyway this used to be Johannes Dyba's point. He was the Catholic bishop of Fulda, he was quite ultraconservative and quite vocal and quite witty at times, too, and he said something on those lines several times.
Always got some CDU backbenchers up to protest...
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Michael Z
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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2004, 09:05:45 am »

Also, the General Secretary of the SPD Olaf Scholz has also been sacked (yeah, asked to resign). He will be replaced by Klaus Uwe Benneter. Benneter once was a far leftie, in fact he was expelled from the SPD in 1977 and readmitted in 1983.

Aren't most members of the SPD/Green coalition ex-far lefties? Fischer, Schily, Trittin, Thierse...
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Great Again No More
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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2004, 05:22:35 am »

Aren't most members of the SPD/Green coalition ex-far lefties? Fischer, Schily, Trittin, Thierse...

With Fischer, Schily and Trittin you are right. But I wouldn´t call Thierse a "ex-far leftie". After all, he´s from the former GDR and was one of the founders (and short-term chairman) of the SPD there. Although he was probably always a "leftie", he was also clearly in opposition to the regime there and therefore not "far left".
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« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2004, 07:38:01 am »

I wouldn't include Schily either, actually. Yes, he defended RAF terrorists as a lawyer, but by that definiton one good friend of mine is an Islamist now. Yes, he was a member of the Green party in the 80's (when kiddo me explained the way to the next Ice Cream Parlour to him), but he was on the party's moderate wing. Yes, he was involved in the campaigns of the CND period, but by that definition Neil Kinnock and Walter Mondale are far left (rather than just left). So, no, Schily was never on the far left, though he once wasn't nearly as centrist as he is now.
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« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2004, 11:20:46 am »

While we´re at... asked about the possibility of coalitions between the CDU and the Greens on state level Michael Glos, leader of the CSU regional group within the CDU/CSU parliamentary group, said today that he opposes coalitions with "eco-stalinists" and "former terrorists" like Fischer or Trittin (what the hell is an "eco-stalinist"?).
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Gustaf
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« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2004, 11:56:20 am »

While we´re at... asked about the possibility of coalitions between the CDU and the Greens on state level Michael Glos, leader of the CSU regional group within the CDU/CSU parliamentary group, said today that he opposes coalitions with "eco-stalinists" and "former terrorists" like Fischer or Trittin (what the hell is a "eco-stalinist"?).

Like an eco-fascist, I guess... Wink
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« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2004, 12:01:57 pm »

Yeesssss... but it's still morally wrong...


What you mean, morally? This is Politics.
And do not be led to a wrong conclusion by that "Christian" in the name.

Hey, according to that test I took, if I were a European, I'd be a Christian Democrat, so I don't like what you are saying about my party. Wink
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Gustaf
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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2004, 12:05:04 pm »

Yeesssss... but it's still morally wrong...


What you mean, morally? This is Politics.
And do not be led to a wrong conclusion by that "Christian" in the name.

Hey, according to that test I took, if I were a European, I'd be a Christian Democrat, so I don't like what you are saying about my party. Wink

I wouldn't want to be a Christian Democrat that much...just look at the Italian Christian Democrats...
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2004, 12:08:58 pm »

The Christian Democrats of the 1st Republic were not really a party... more like a very, very, very big coalition of special interests... kind of like the LDP in Japan...
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Gustaf
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« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2004, 12:09:32 pm »

The Christian Democrats of the 1st Republic were not really a party... more like a very, very, very big coalition of special interests... kind of like the LDP in Japan...

Or the Republicans... Wink
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2004, 12:15:03 pm »

The Christian Democrats of the 1st Republic were not really a party... more like a very, very, very big coalition of special interests... kind of like the LDP in Japan...

Or the Republicans... Wink

Uhhh, acctually, that really describes the Democrats better.
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