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Hashemite
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« Reply #300 on: March 07, 2009, 11:56:49 AM »

1981!



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« Reply #301 on: March 11, 2009, 08:12:18 PM »

Well, I'm done! I even found out about the constituencies in the Seine and Seine-et-Oise, allowing me to do 1958 and correct 1962 (Goguel was wrong in a few places).

1958





1962





1967





1968





1973





I won't comment on them right now, even though some are fascinating. Just a few caveats for these. A lot of the party affiliations in the '60's and early '70's were a bit obscure and vary from source to source, so I used knowledge and the Assemblée's records by parliamentary groups. So, errors and/or arguments definitely possible for these maps.

Note on the centrist insanity in 1973. The RDS (Réformateurs démocrates sociaux) was composed of deputies from the MR (CD, rightie Rads, and small centrist/Christiandem parties). The UC (Union centriste) was composed mostly of deputies from the CDP (Centre, démocratie, et progrès), a spinoff from the CD which supported Pompidou and Chaban-Delmas in the 1969 and 1974 elections. The RDS and UC groups merged following Giscard's election in 1974 and became RCDS (Réformateurs, centristes et démocrates sociaux). The MNPL was Jacques Soustelle's French Algeria one-man show.

As you probably know, the Radicals and SFIO formed a common alliance/party/whatever called FGDS in 1967 and 1968, but I've broken the FGDS deputies down into Rads and Socialists.
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big bad fab
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« Reply #302 on: March 13, 2009, 04:49:23 AM »

Bon sang !

What a big, big work. Congratulations. We should appreciate it at its real value, which is great.

Where did you find the constituencies of Seine and Seine-et-Oise ?

Loir-et-Cher is striking in 1962 and 1967: didn't remember there was 2 SFIO in this rightist department.

58 is even more striking than 68 and 81...

A lot of the party affiliations in the '60's and early '70's were a bit obscure and vary from source to source, so I used knowledge and the Assemblée's records by parliamentary groups. So, errors and/or arguments definitely possible for these maps.

I'll try to find time to give you some more precise data on 73,78 and 81 on the affiliation on election day (daily work, works in progress in my house, children don't let me enough free time these days....).
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« Reply #303 on: March 13, 2009, 06:47:21 AM »

Where did you find the constituencies of Seine and Seine-et-Oise ?

Wikipedia (French, that is) has a list of the constituencies giving a rough composition of each constituency. Constituencies in the Seine-et-Oise were hand-drawn by me based on the info, though.
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« Reply #304 on: April 13, 2009, 10:23:40 PM »

I'm somewhat ignorant about French politics, but I never would have guessed the Right would do so well in Paris. Actually, the absence of any consistent urban/rural split is quite striking, compared with American politics
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« Reply #305 on: April 14, 2009, 04:37:03 AM »

I'm somewhat ignorant about French politics, but I never would have guessed the Right would do so well in Paris. Actually, the absence of any consistent urban/rural split is quite striking, compared with American politics

The strength of the Parisian right is due to the fact that Chirac was Paris' mayor for 18 years.
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« Reply #306 on: April 14, 2009, 06:43:46 AM »
« Edited: April 14, 2009, 04:24:09 PM by Enor, enor d'ar gwenn-ha-du »

I'm somewhat ignorant about French politics, but I never would have guessed the Right would do so well in Paris. Actually, the absence of any consistent urban/rural split is quite striking, compared with American politics

The strength of the Parisian right is due to the fact that Chirac was Paris' mayor for 18 years.

Yes, but that's a weak answer. Paris has some very wealthy areas that are consistently right-wing, Chirac or no Chirac. While Chirac does/did play an important role, his effect nowadays is certainly overplayed.

Actually, the absence of any consistent urban/rural split is quite striking, compared with American politics

There is a rural/urban split in a lot of places, but one needs to remember that European urban/rural splits are never as pronounced as the ones in the United State since many large European inner cities include very wealthy areas, unlike most U.S. cities. In France, wealthy core areas were strongly right-wing, but more and more leftie these days.

There is a reverse rural/urban split in the Southwest. The rural areas are Socialist, left over from the days of the SFIO (pre-Mitterrand socialists), which was a primarily rural party. The SFIO had strong party bosses which kept the SFIO alive there, but the southwest is generally secular (though you have to be careful with that) and a Second Empire Republican stronghold. The righties of various stripes were strong in urban areas, such as Toulouse or Carcassonne, although the left has made impressive gains in both cities.

There is a mild and far-from-universal typical rural right vs. urban left in most other areas, although as I said, it's 'mild' and far from universal.
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« Reply #307 on: May 03, 2009, 10:55:18 AM »

Tarn



Tarn-et-Garonne

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big bad fab
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« Reply #308 on: May 05, 2009, 04:27:58 AM »

In Tarn, old coal mines in the north and Toulouse far suburbs in the south west for the left.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #309 on: May 05, 2009, 10:35:35 AM »

There is a reverse rural/urban split in the Southwest. The rural areas are Socialist, left over from the days of the SFIO (pre-Mitterrand socialists) Napoleon I.
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« Reply #310 on: July 11, 2009, 08:01:31 PM »

Maps taken from PDF files sent by Fab.

Maps of pre-Tours French socialism in the late 19th century/very early 20th century.



1914 SFIO is pretty revealing



Poor results in today's solid pink Southwest, which was still dominated by les notables of the RadSoc system. Best results in the beginnings of the industrial 13, the "red Var", the "red Limousin" in Haute-Vienne, rural Allier and surrounding departments (lots of metayage/sharecropping in that region), and the beginnings of the industrial northeast section of France. A lot of those heavily red departments later became the PCF's strongholds for most of the 20th century.

1919 SFIO is very interesting (one year before the split)



Deux-Sevres is a big stickout in there. I'm not sure how to explain that without knowledge of the Socialist list there, a map of the local results in the department and local/regional factors. Alsace is also very interesting. Alsace is working class, but largely Catholic working class. I don't recall the Catholic working class areas voting SPD during the Kaiserreich, though I may be wrong. Best results seem to be in Haut-Rhin, which is the most working class of the two (I believe potash mining outside Mulhouse and Cernay was quite big in 1919) though the least Protestant of the two (IIRC, Protestants are around Sarre-Union, Wissembourg, and Strasbourg-Campagne) - though there is an important community in Mulhouse and, I think, Colmar. Though the Socialists were allied to the German-Alsatian autonomist party in Haut-Rhin too. Vote might be some odd voting results as a result of recent return to France, an odd occurrence of devout Catholic working class voting on the left, or remainders of the Republic of Alsace-Lorraine experience in 1918.

More later.
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« Reply #311 on: July 12, 2009, 04:35:46 AM »
« Edited: July 12, 2009, 04:39:15 AM by big bad fab »

If I have time one day, I may explain what were the different wings of socialism in France: very interesting, as the Socialist Party in France is not at all linked to trade unions.
There were intellectual debates between elected (or not) politicians, no practical solutions and processes.

As for 1919 (Alsace), I have no explanation, except maybe the rejection of war: pacifism was very pregnant after WWI and Jaurès was the more pacifist before the war.

For Deux-Sèvres (and Maine-et-Loire in 1914), maybe textile industries around Cholet and in towns in the northern part of the department.
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« Reply #312 on: July 12, 2009, 08:29:42 AM »
« Edited: July 12, 2009, 08:33:04 AM by Independência ou Morte! »

If I have time one day, I may explain what were the different wings of socialism in France: very interesting, as the Socialist Party in France is not at all linked to trade unions.
There were intellectual debates between elected (or not) politicians, no practical solutions and processes.

I was too lazy last night to write up some detailed explanation on it, but here goes:

The PSR was a blanquist (revolution by putsch or coup-d'etat then the revolutionaries institute socialism) party. They were "nationalist" socialists, jacobinist patriots and anti-clerical. They became more union-oriented after the Boulangist splinter from the group and the Vaillant era turned the party into a much more unionist party.

The POSR was both a reformist party (possiblism - which judged that socialism was possible through a non-revolutionary and non-Marxist gradual buildup, such as decentralization, and national legislative work) and union/strike-oriented party. Allemane was the leader of the syndicalist wing, though there also was the intellectual wing.

The POF was France's first Marxist party and is probably the most famous of the four presented. It was revolutionary (as opposed to the reformist POSR) and wanted to abolish capitalism. Members included Jules Guesde, Paul Lafargue, and Marcel Cachin (who led the Communist faction at the Tours Congress). As you said, there wasn't a major union movement behind this party, but it had working-class bases of support (Allier, Nord) though I think you also had an intellectual revolutionary wing. The first socialist city in the world was Commentry, Allier, a coal mining city, which was won by the POF in 1882.

Independent Socialists were actually people who refused to join these parties, though they became the most reformist wing. They respected parliamentarianism, they refused party discipline and they were open to working with the RadSocs. The most famous member was, of course, Jean Jaurès. Other famous names include Alexandre Millerand, René Viviani, Aristide Briand. Most joined the SFIO, though the most reformist wing of the group joined the PRS (a small, slightly nationalist, socialist party which actually existed until the '30's or so).

The SFIO was formed by the Socialist Party of France (PSdF) - which was the PSR and POF - and the French Socialist Party (PSF) - which was the POSR and the Independents.

Of course, there was never a mass following for these outfits pre-1905, 13% in 1902 for PSF and PSdF combined, 9% in 1898. The first socialists in Parliament were, according to my data, 33 Socialists in 1893 (the same time the RadSocs moved from the left to the centre-left, and later centre).

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Yeah, there's always been industry in Cholet etc, but it's always been Catholic working class votes and I don't recall seeing any sustained long-term socialist tradition.
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« Reply #313 on: July 12, 2009, 04:27:50 PM »

Great, you've done it, this synthesis on the 4 main currents of French socialism.

The problem is that Allemane didn't prevail. And that, contrary to UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway, etc, that weren't the TU that created the party.
In France, all the social laws were adopted from the central state, by more "enlightened" republican and radical politicians, not under pressure from big TU or in a sort of consensus between TU and the power.

No TU + Guesde's influence explain many French socialism's weaknesses, up to now !
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« Reply #314 on: July 12, 2009, 07:57:25 PM »

For Deux-Sèvres (and Maine-et-Loire in 1914), maybe textile industries around Cholet and in towns in the northern part of the department.

Yeah, there's always been industry in Cholet etc, but it's always been Catholic working class votes and I don't recall seeing any sustained long-term socialist tradition.
[/quote]

The Choletais has always been very conservative since the beginning of the third Republic, but the Baugeois (the north-eastern part of the department) was left leaning at this period and stayed like this until the 60's at least.
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« Reply #315 on: July 20, 2009, 02:16:53 PM »

I know I posted all other Euro maps in the Euro thread, but sue me.



Especially amusing how constituency boundaries are important factors. In the West, de Villiers is the Eurosceptic standard bearer and has coalesced all anti-Euro votes on the right, more or less, with his outfits.

Aside from that, Essonne (NDA's "homestate") - Yerres in particular (36% of the vote there) and, amusingly, de Gaulle's Haute-Marne (lol) and 8% in Colombey (other lol). Other high performances in more indutrialized right-wing and traditional Gaullist departments out east and in the NW. Orne is a bit peculiar, though it had a crush on de Gaulle in the '60's.

Alsace ain't liking no Eurosceptic clowns (despite being Gaullist in the past), and the bourgeois in the 92 ain't liking them either.
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« Reply #316 on: July 20, 2009, 04:42:56 PM »

I know I posted all other Euro maps in the Euro thread, but sue me.



Especially amusing how constituency boundaries are important factors. In the West, de Villiers is the Eurosceptic standard bearer and has coalesced all anti-Euro votes on the right, more or less, with his outfits.

Aside from that, Essonne (NDA's "homestate") - Yerres in particular (36% of the vote there) and, amusingly, de Gaulle's Haute-Marne (lol) and 8% in Colombey (other lol). Other high performances in more indutrialized right-wing and traditional Gaullist departments out east and in the NW. Orne is a bit peculiar, though it had a crush on de Gaulle in the '60's.

Alsace ain't liking no Eurosceptic clowns (despite being Gaullist in the past), and the bourgeois in the 92 ain't liking them either.

LOLz for Haute-Marne and Colombey !

Dupont-Aignan may have gathered some of the former FN votes in the inner East and in the great Parisian Basin.
But that's tiny...
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« Reply #317 on: July 20, 2009, 05:52:40 PM »

I was on a LO-spree this afternoon, it seems. Laguiller's outfit, but old-fashioned Trots, without the whole new 'feminist'/'ecologist' etiquettes attached.



LO's electoral geography has always been quite bizarre: on one hand, they do very well in industrial France but also well in rural, usually rural 'red' areas but also, at times, rural 'blue' areas.

Laguiller or LO never had the yuppy/Maoist vote that the LCR has (or had, it seems), so Laguiller always performed bad in inner cities though generally better in poorer suburbs - though, unsurprisingly, an old white bank employee never appealed much to poor North Africans in the 93 like Besancenot is sometimes able to do.



 
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« Reply #318 on: July 22, 2009, 07:47:13 PM »

The CDSP has released data for all Euro elections since 1979, including results since 1989 by constituency!

Therefore, I decided to exploit the site's riches to make two very interesting - and, to my knowledge, unique - maps.



Constituencies the PS won:

Ariege: 'nuff said
Aude: 'nuff said
Tarn (Carmaux): old mining regions
Landes-3: Typical Socialist Southwest seat with no wealthy coastal communities like the others have (though, granted, few - and even those have a strong 'Champagne Socialist' tradition)
Hautes-Pyrenees (Bagneres-de-Bigorres): See above, rural seat without much clericals (Lourdes) or cities (Tarbes)
Creuse-1: Western Creuse, similar to Haute-Vienne, and without Chiraquiste or UDF influence from the east
Nievre-1: Urban seat including Nevers. Beregovoy's old seat. Not winning the 3rd (Mitterrand's old seat) is a really bad sign for the PS. Cosne-Cours' constituency (2nd) is the most rightie, including Cosne-Cours itself and right-wing areas along the Loire.
Calvados (Caen-Est): Poorer and more industrial Caen
Cotes-d'Armor (Guingamp): Part of the Breton Red Belt. PCF did well (12.15%)
Loire-Atlantique (Saint-Nazaire): Ugly shipbuilding city which has never liked Communists
Deux-Sevres (Niort): More the result of the drug addict's influence, though they did lose her seat (Saint-Maixent) narrowly. Without that, would probably have been in line with other cities such as Poitiers or La Rochelle.
Haute-Vienne: Two rural 'red' seats
Lille proper: The non-downtown and slightly poorer seats, though the PS was strong in Lille due to their top candidate (Pargneaux, a Aubry robot) and Aubry's influence.
Nord (outside Lille): Industrial Dunkerque
Marseille proper: Dirt poor areas of the north. Old PCF land.
Seine-Maritime: Industrial suburbs of Rouen
Pas-de-Calais: Mining belt (minus Henin-Beaumont, where the FN actually won) and the industrial harbour of Boulogne-sur-Mer
Lorraine: The old mines of Longwy, Moyeuvre-Grande and Rombas. Rombas is a bit surprising, and they only slightly did worse than Royal in 2007. Probably the proof of the UMP's losses with blue collars re:2007.
93: Aubervilliers
94: Vitry and Alfortville. Vitry is old PCF land (and they actually won the city with 18.67%), while Alfortville is slightly richer (higher Greenie and UMP vote than in Vitry)
Polynesie-1: wtf. Probably nationalists. But yes, caveats. Turnout!
Wallis and Futuna: slightly less wtf, they've been trending left for some time, though 40% is definitely wtf. But yes, caveats. Turnout!
Reunion (Saint-Denis, I think): PS top candidate is president of the Saint-Denis agglomeration community and is from the city. But yes, caveats. Turnout!

Other notes: The PCF did quite well, they did very well in the old mining belt in the Nord and won parts of the 93 Red Belt.

I posted that DLR map a few days ago, and it was 5% in Essonne. Looking at constituency results, did rather horribly in the department EXCEPT NDA's constituency (won with 24%!)

Note the favourite son vote for Baudis around Toulouse, and Riquet around Valenciennes. Arnaud Danjean may even have had an effect in Saone-et-Loire (he's the guy who ran against that lil sh**t Montebourg in 2007)

Very poor FLNKS-nat turnout in New Caledonia, compounded with rather good loyalist turnout and all their votes coalescing around the UMP.

Ah, forgot to colour in Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon correctly. UMP 34%, PS 24%, Green 21%. It's a cool island.



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« Reply #319 on: July 22, 2009, 07:53:21 PM »



Very interesting.

If anything, it's perfect proof for the 'theory', or more scientific fact, that urbanites switched to the Greenies. Look at where the dark is!

Rather simple formula:

Urban city or suburban area + high CPIS people - industrial areas/mines - ultra wealthy people + middleclass = High Green vote ( bigger city only increases Green vote)

Also note the effect of Bove, Rivasi. Best not take the results in Corse all that seriously, of course.

Also fun to note that local environmental problems have minimal effect on the Green vote. Maybe the votes on the Breton coast, but there's a lot of middle-class there. For example, look at the Green shares around the Cap de la Hague (nuclear plant) - either average or below average.
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« Reply #320 on: July 23, 2009, 12:12:25 AM »

Excellente !
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« Reply #321 on: July 23, 2009, 08:27:44 AM »

Fantastic !
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« Reply #322 on: August 14, 2009, 10:12:56 AM »



The FR was the main right-wing party during the later Third Republic. The FR was founded in 1903 by conservative republicans, thus the party became the party of the upper republican bourgeoisie, the industrialists and so forth. In 1919, the ALP (the party of the ralliés - Catholics rallied to the Republic) merged into the FR. During the 1930s, the party moved to the right under Louis Marin and it became more of a national-conservative party and even formed, in 1937, a "Liberty Front" with charming people like Doriot's PPF.

Post-war, it became the PRL and later the CNI.

The map clearly shows it was the party of clerical Catholics (no surprise there, considering the above), only exception was Alsace where there was a very strong local Christian democratic party (UPR... think BVP in Bavaria). I think these results seem to count the UPR's Mosellan counterpart, the URL in the FR since, until 1932, the URL sat in the FR groups (as opposed to the AD or PDP groups like the UPR).

I don't have data for the AD itself, but I'd be interested in making a map if anybody has it, though with the AD, it's probably a bit difficult.
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« Reply #323 on: August 14, 2009, 06:08:12 PM »



I don't have data for the AD itself, but I'd be interested in making a map if anybody has it, though with the AD, it's probably a bit difficult.
Unfortunately, I've opened all my books...
But I keep it in mind !
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« Reply #324 on: August 15, 2009, 10:22:10 AM »

Unfortunately, I've opened all my books...
But I keep it in mind !

I can understand why. The AD was split between different parliamentary groups all the time...

Anyways.





Cavaignac, a run-of-the-mill moderate early republican, had a vote which was quite a bit ambiguous: he was the main anti-Bonapartist candidate and his vote reflected that, so it reflected both 'whites' (monarchists) and 'reds' (republicans). Large swaths of the non-'white' countryside plebiscited the name "Bonaparte" thinking they were voting for Napoleon I.

Cavaignac won four departments: Finistere (I would assume that it was, in 1848, atleast plurality Breton-speaking Smiley), Morbihan, Var and the Bouches-du-Rhone.



An early map of French republicanism, little in common with current-day socialism - but a lot in common with earlier French socialism and early communism.

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