$16 Million of Kerry Fundraising may be "Mob" related says ABC News

[MarkDel]

I'm not posting for his benefit.

Many people read these posts who do not post themselves.

Many of them (and many of the posters) are just kids who really don't know whats going on.  If the outrageous statements of posters are not refuted, some will erroneously think they are true.

So, I'll keep correcting the outrageous statements of that posters (as well as others) if I feel others have not sufficently dealt with the outrageous statements.

Carl,

Yes, that was my thought when I started posting here, but it's really impossible to change anyone's mind here. I guess there are a few people who could go either way, but for the most part, this is a partisan board. It may be bi-partisan in terms of its composition, but not in terms of the ideology of most members.

[freedomburns]

You posted the "everybody does it," allegation, and I called you on it.

Still waiting for the "gangsters' (your term) who have contributed to the Bush campaign this year.

Here are some of Bush's most unethical actions:
-- His top aides illegally exposed a CIA agent to coverup lies about Iraq
-- Lied to congress and used forged documents to get approval for war in Iraq
-- Convicted of drunk driving, and lied repeatedly to cover that up.
-- Lied under oath to stop a private lawsuit.
-- Covered up Saudi aid to 9/11 hijackers
-- Made millions from losing businesses, bailed out by his dad's friends.
-- Steered tens of millions of Texas state tax dollars to his campaign contributors, now steering billions of US tax dollars to his cronies and contributors.

As far as unethical means of acquiring money, I think this counts:
CNN's Brooks Jackson cuts to the chase and arrives at some telling conclusions about how George made his Bush bucks: "Bush started in the Texas oil business, after Yale University and Harvard Business School. Wealthy family friends and others invested millions with him, but with poor results. A 1985 disclosure shows Bush's track record: Investors got back only 45 cents on the dollar, but few complained. Investors also got tax deductions averaging more than 80 cents on every dollar invested. Those early Bush ventures were mainly tax shelters." Everyone agrees that Dubya's baseball venture was his most successful business experience: "Bush takes credit for conceiving The Ballpark at Arlington, home of the Texas Rangers baseball team, which he bought in 1989 with a wealthy group of investors. Among them: billionaire Richard Rainwater of Fort Worth. Bush invested just over $600,000, but Arlington taxpayers invested a lot more. 'It was $135 million worth of sales tax money,' said attorney Glenn Sodd. 'The city donated a good bit of land to the project. They got a sales tax exemption on all the items that were purchased for the stadium. We have a property tax in Texas and they were given as part of the deal a property tax exemption.' A total of at least $200 million, according to Sodd." So there you have it, "Bush the businessman did prosper. But not by his bootstraps -- with help from wealthy friends and taxpayer subsidies." Politex, May 1999

and this:
What George does to make a Bush buck is called "Crony Capitalism" by commentatorJim Hightower. Case in point: Dubya's financial relationship with Richard Rainwater during his tenure as Texas governor. Rainwater's "a billionaire speculator and money manager who ranks among the wealthiest 100 Americans. It's well known that Rainwater has been a major financial backer of Bush's political career, but it's a little-known fact that he's also largely responsible for Bush's personal wealth. He's put Bush into various profitable deals, from oil and gas to real estate, but the big one was the Texas Rangers baseball franchise." Rainwater and Bush sold the baseball team to another Texas high roller and Bush campaign contributer, billionaire Tom Hicks. But their relationship didn't stop there. When Bush became Guv in '95, he put all but his Texas Rangers stock into a blind trust managed by--surprise--Rainwater. Hightower implies the financial relationship wasn't a one-way street: "Bush is nothing if not loyal to Rainwater, who has done very nicely while his pal has been governor. Among the favors Rainwater has enjoyed: *State buildings sold to Rainwater's real estate company at bargain basement rates; *State college and public school funds invested in Rainwater's company; *A Bush-sponsored tax cut that failed, but would have cut millions in annual taxes for Rainwater; and *A stadium-financing bill backed by Bush that gave a $10 million bonus payment to a Rainwater company."

and this:
 In a series of research pieces by R. G. Ratcliffe published last August in the Houston Chronicle. Ratcliffe reports that when George was asked to comment upon various state actions such as his administration's relationships with Rainwater, "Bush angrily denied any collusion or conflicts of interest, saying, 'I didn't - I swear I didn't - get into politics to feather my nest or feather my friends' nests.... Any insinuation that I have used my office to help my friends is simply not true.'" The Texas Observer's Michael King is intrigued by Bush's protestations of innocence: "While specific state transactions might indeed be subject to conflict-of-interest inquiries, the state policies Ratcliffe describes - privatization; regressive taxation; state subsidies and tax abatements for corporations; the systematic use of public resources for the benefit of private power - represent not a conflict, but a confluence of interests, between the state's major business entities and the politicians they support and underwrite. The fact that among those entities are corporations and businessman with whom Bush himself has done particular deals - well, that's not corruption, exactly. It's just business as usual."

freedomburns

[freedomburns]

Great spirits have always encountered fierce opositon from mediocre minds.  - Albert Einstein  (Time Magazine's Person of the Century)

[ATFFL]

Great spirits have always encountered fierce opositon from mediocre minds.  - Albert Einstein  (Time Magazine's Person of the Century)

"Mediocre minds always think themselves great spirits."  Me (Time Magazin'es Entity of the 21st Century)

[??????????]

All I said in that email was that you are an a**hole for essentially calling me a liar by claiming that my thoughts are bullsh** with no basis for your statement.  If you find that threatening, then I take it back.  

I take my ideas seriously.  I am deeply offended at being called a liar, especially when you are providing no support for this ad hominum attack on me.  I feel like you owe me an apology.

Anyway, I won't send you any more emails if you are going to act like a girl about it.

freedomburns

Ignore this troll.

[CARLHAYDEN]

All I said in that email was that you are an a**hole for essentially calling me a liar by claiming that my thoughts are bullsh** with no basis for your statement.  If you find that threatening, then I take it back.  

I take my ideas seriously.  I am deeply offended at being called a liar, especially when you are providing no support for this ad hominum attack on me.  I feel like you owe me an apology.

Anyway, I won't send you any more emails if you are going to act like a girl about it.

freedomburns

Ignore this troll.

One of the great thing about the written word, as opposed to oral communications, is that there is a written record to track.

A favorite method of many liberals, when confronted with with the  statements they make is to fail to back up those statements, change the subject, and instead respond with anger, and even more absurd statements.

Note, that FB has yet to post the identity of the "gangsters" who have contributed this year to the Bush reelection campaign.

[freedomburns]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

My version of "gangasters" includes those whose racket is to promote war so that they can sell guns.  

These gangsters are the worst ones of all because they do not care if the wars that they start kill thousands of innocents.  They only care that they sell lots of guns, not what gets done with them.

The Republicans are way to cagey to take campaign contributions from real mafia-type guys.  That is the Democrats long-standing modus operandi.  Wasn't Jimmy Hoffa, a liberal union leader also a big Democrat supporter?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How hypocritical your posting is.  You accuse me of doing exactly what your post shows evidence of conservatives doing.  And I see this kind of behavior a lot from them.  You right-wingers have no way of refuting the facts that I present, so you resort to angry name calling and to cajoling each other to "Ignore this troll."  If this is not an example of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

freedomburns

[freedomburns]

Prayer to Heaven:

Oh Lordy, please protect me from vicious right-wing ideologues of limited capacity.  Please grant each of them enough of a brain to remember their promise to ignore my postings.  I beseech thee oh most Holy Father to allow me this one wish: that those whose minds are so closed and rigid as to deny the truth will allow me to post my beliefs freely without fear that they will slander me and call me childish names in protestation of my correct and irrefutable factual statements.  I know that they are also your children, Lordy, and this is my only prayer to you.  We both know that they have not the ability to argue with logic and facts.  If all that they are able to offer to defend their rigid and inflexible opinions is vitriolic name calling and libelous lies, then please, oh please, Lordy make them keep their promises.  Don't let this be like the last time...

You and I will watch Lordy, as they sink into the quicksand of public opinion, rigid as salt pillars, holding the flag high and chanting "America is the greatest.  America is the greatest.  America is...blub blub blub".  Meanwhile those of us who truly care about doing the hard work involved in remaking this country into the great one it once was will trudge by them with the wind of history at our backs while we carry the burden of true democracy on our shoulders.  Tyranny and fascism have always fallen into disfavor once the people are allowed access to truth and light.  Never in history has this failed to happen.

I remember what you told me Lordy, that the only things that are guaranteed when you get into a fight with a pig is that the pig will enjoy it and that you will feel soiled and like taking a shower afterwards.  Make them remember their promise.  I beseech thee, and yet still I have little faith that it will happen.  Anyway, thanks for listening to my prayer.

freedomburns

[??????????]

Way to throw gasoline onto the fire.

[freedomburns]

Way to throw gasoline onto the fire.

Thanks!  I am doing my best...

freedomburns

[??????????]

So you attack MarkDel and when he bites back you cry victim. Sounds like what a lot of groups in this nation do.

[freedomburns]

So you attack MarkDel and when he bites back you cry victim. Sounds like what a lot of groups in this nation do.

Who is crying victim?  That is a weird interpretation.

What I am crying is "Bring it on!"  Is that clear, or do you need me to s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t f-o-r y-o-u?  It is clear to me that I have nothing to fear in terms of honest debate from these people. Jeeze.  

(Some people have a problem with reading between the lines folks.  Give him some time now.)

freedomburns

[CARLHAYDEN]

Another standard tactic of some liberals when faced by facts is to try to redefine terms, and engage in ad hominem attacks.

It appears that you are unable to find any examples of real "gangsters" who contributed to the Bush reelection effort this year.

[MarkDel]

Prayer to Heaven:

Oh Lordy, please protect me from vicious right-wing ideologues of limited capacity.  Please grant each of them enough of a brain to remember their promise to ignore my postings.  I beseech thee oh most Holy Father to allow me this one wish: that those whose minds are so closed and rigid as to deny the truth will allow me to post my beliefs freely without fear that they will slander me and call me childish names in protestation of my correct and irrefutable factual statements.  I know that they are also your children, Lordy, and this is my only prayer to you.  We both know that they have not the ability to argue with logic and facts.  If all that they are able to offer to defend their rigid and inflexible opinions is vitriolic name calling and libelous lies, then please, oh please, Lordy make them keep their promises.  Don't let this be like the last time...

You and I will watch Lordy, as they sink into the quicksand of public opinion, rigid as salt pillars, holding the flag high and chanting "America is the greatest.  America is the greatest.  America is...blub blub blub".  Meanwhile those of us who truly care about doing the hard work involved in remaking this country into the great one it once was will trudge by them with the wind of history at our backs while we carry the burden of true democracy on our shoulders.  Tyranny and fascism have always fallen into disfavor once the people are allowed access to truth and light.  Never in history has this failed to happen.

I remember what you told me Lordy, that the only things that are guaranteed when you get into a fight with a pig is that the pig will enjoy it and that you will feel soiled and like taking a shower afterwards.  Make them remember their promise.  I beseech thee, and yet still I have little faith that it will happen.  Anyway, thanks for listening to my prayer.

freedomburns

Freedom,

You make this plea for civilized, substantive debate, then you post this? You don't find that somewhat inconsistent?

[freedomburns]

Prayer to Heaven:

Oh Lordy, please protect me from vicious right-wing ideologues of limited capacity.  Please grant each of them enough of a brain to remember their promise to ignore my postings.  I beseech thee oh most Holy Father to allow me this one wish: that those whose minds are so closed and rigid as to deny the truth will allow me to post my beliefs freely without fear that they will slander me and call me childish names in protestation of my correct and irrefutable factual statements.  I know that they are also your children, Lordy, and this is my only prayer to you.  We both know that they have not the ability to argue with logic and facts.  If all that they are able to offer to defend their rigid and inflexible opinions is vitriolic name calling and libelous lies, then please, oh please, Lordy make them keep their promises.  Don't let this be like the last time...

You and I will watch Lordy, as they sink into the quicksand of public opinion, rigid as salt pillars, holding the flag high and chanting "America is the greatest.  America is the greatest.  America is...blub blub blub".  Meanwhile those of us who truly care about doing the hard work involved in remaking this country into the great one it once was will trudge by them with the wind of history at our backs while we carry the burden of true democracy on our shoulders.  Tyranny and fascism have always fallen into disfavor once the people are allowed access to truth and light.  Never in history has this failed to happen.

I remember what you told me Lordy, that the only things that are guaranteed when you get into a fight with a pig is that the pig will enjoy it and that you will feel soiled and like taking a shower afterwards.  Make them remember their promise.  I beseech thee, and yet still I have little faith that it will happen.  Anyway, thanks for listening to my prayer.

freedomburns

Freedom,

You make this plea for civilized, substantive debate, then you post this? You don't find that somewhat inconsistent?

Mark,

I stand (sit actually) duly chastised on this one.  I wrote this mostly because I like to read my own writing (like some people like to hear themselves talk) and because I like tweaking Republicans.  But that really is not what I want to do here.  I want to foster good debate.  And I will say again in all seriousness, and I mean it, that it is wrong to imply that conservatives are fascists or tyranical or nazis.  That is totally unfair and not really a civilized statement for the forum.

So, I will essentially retract that posting.  My objective is to hash out ideas and opinions, really to see if I can convince myself or anyone else that mine can hold water.  I appreciate having the forum, and I don't want to be unreasonable like that.  Sometimes I let myself get carried away.

I seem to be a little overly tweakable myself.  Please don't take me too seriously if I spew out a posting like that.  Take it with a grain of salt and let me have my fun when I need to babble.

CARLHAYDEN is essentially correct as well, that I am unable to cite specific examples of mafia gangsters types contributing to Republican election campaigns so I am reduced to posting the next closest thing that I can find.  I still think it's relevant, but I don't think anyone is going to be swayed into believing any more or less than they already do that both big parties are equally corrupt.  No, CARLHAYDEN, not "everybody does it".  Everybody doesn't take money from the mafia (at least not provably).  Everybody, meaning both major parties, gets away with as much as they possibly can while obeying the letter of the ever changing current campaign finance laws.  And who is going to argue that?  Or that shady dealings go on in back rooms?  Or that backs get scratched when the scratch gets rolling?

I am saying that I consider both Dems and Reps equally corrupt and that is one of the reasons for why I am a very strong advocate for public financing of all elections.  I strongly believe that public financing of elections could go a LONG way toward solving many this countries problems.

freedomburns

[CARLHAYDEN]

Thank you for your admission.

This definitely puts you above some of the other liberal posters on this board.

As to the second point you raised in your original response to my original post on this thread, do you have any suggestions to get the media to provide better coverage to the minor party candidates?