Countries that ban 'Fahrenheit 9/11'

[minionofmidas]

Yes Manhunt Two is banned here. No I don't feel banning polluted public discourse in anyway. No I don't think it should have been banned. But there are at least 100 more important things to discuss in Ireland alone today. (The reaction at the news on some sites I used to visit was at times hysterical. Which is often why the word "used to" came into that sentence. In comparsion the word Fascist is treated with the proper meaning it deserves.)

Wow. See why I don't like Ireland?

No, but then I've largely given up trying to follow BRTD logic.

So if you visited another country and managed to smuggle a copy of Manhunt 2 back or imported it in an unmarked box, could you then be arrested for owning it?

Almost certainly not.

Presumably this would not be illegal at all, and a law would be broken only if he tried to sell it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yes Manhunt Two is banned here. No I don't feel banning polluted public discourse in anyway. No I don't think it should have been banned. But there are at least 100 more important things to discuss in Ireland alone today. (The reaction at the news on some sites I used to visit was at times hysterical. Which is often why the word "used to" came into that sentence. In comparsion the word Fascist is treated with the proper meaning it deserves.)

Wow. See why I don't like Ireland?

No, but then I've largely given up trying to follow BRTD logic.

I don't like any country that bans media. Ireland also banned Baise Moi.

[Јas]

Yes Manhunt Two is banned here. No I don't feel banning polluted public discourse in anyway. No I don't think it should have been banned. But there are at least 100 more important things to discuss in Ireland alone today. (The reaction at the news on some sites I used to visit was at times hysterical. Which is often why the word "used to" came into that sentence. In comparsion the word Fascist is treated with the proper meaning it deserves.)

Wow. See why I don't like Ireland?

No, but then I've largely given up trying to follow BRTD logic.

So if you visited another country and managed to smuggle a copy of Manhunt 2 back or imported it in an unmarked box, could you then be arrested for owning it?

Almost certainly not.

Presumably this would not be illegal at all, and a law would be broken only if he tried to sell it.

Yeah, that's probably right. And even then, unless he was doing so on a commercial basis with numerous copies of the game wold there be any real chance that some sort of sanction may result.

I don't like any country that bans media. Ireland also banned Baise Moi.

I'm going to disagree with the use of the word 'banned' here. Baise Moi was refused a classification and so wasn't allowed to be shown in commercial cinemas. Private clubs are (IIRC) still allowed to show such films.

Anyway, what country doesn't place limits on what can be broadcast?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm going to disagree with the use of the word 'banned' here. Baise Moi was refused a classification and so wasn't allowed to be shown in commercial cinemas. Private clubs are (IIRC) still allowed to show such films.

Which is still too much of a restriction. And no such restriction exists in the US.

Anyway, what country doesn't place limits on what can be broadcast?

The US. One of the areas where we are much better off than the rest of the world.

Before you bring up FCC regulations and whatnot, that only applies to things broadcast over PUBLIC airwaves.

[Јas]

I'm going to disagree with the use of the word 'banned' here. Baise Moi was refused a classification and so wasn't allowed to be shown in commercial cinemas. Private clubs are (IIRC) still allowed to show such films.

Which is still too much of a restriction. And no such restriction exists in the US.

Anyway, what country doesn't place limits on what can be broadcast?

The US. One of the areas where we are much better off than the rest of the world.

Before you bring up FCC regulations and whatnot, that only applies to things broadcast over PUBLIC airwaves.

You do realise that you've just stated that restricting a film from commercial cinema in Ireland = really bad, but censoring all sorts of things from US commercial TV, etc = ok ?

The US also has defamation laws which limit what can be said/written/broadcast, etc.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Just to Clarify, When a film\video game\etc is banned here in Ireland it's only illegal to distribute in the country; not to consume (and these laws are rather flouted here alot, my local video store had more than a couple of films on sale on the banned list. I know this as I once worked there. And as any Irish film goer would know censorship ratings are given absolutely attention to anyone once you look over 12.)

Boise Moi btw (and some other "bans" or "semi-bans") was allowed to be showed in Private film clubs, mainly the Irish Film Institute in Eustace Street which I regularly used to haunt.

For the record I'm against censorship. Just responding to your ridiculous verbatim. Yet again.

[Governor PiT]

Democray just means majority rule, it doesn't guarente freedom of speach or the press.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm going to disagree with the use of the word 'banned' here. Baise Moi was refused a classification and so wasn't allowed to be shown in commercial cinemas. Private clubs are (IIRC) still allowed to show such films.

Which is still too much of a restriction. And no such restriction exists in the US.

Anyway, what country doesn't place limits on what can be broadcast?

The US. One of the areas where we are much better off than the rest of the world.

Before you bring up FCC regulations and whatnot, that only applies to things broadcast over PUBLIC airwaves.

You do realise that you've just stated that restricting a film from commercial cinema in Ireland = really bad, but censoring all sorts of things from US commercial TV, etc = ok ?

I didn't say it's OK, nor do I like FCC regulations, I'm just saying it's a completely different situation.

The FCC restrictions only apply to PUBLIC airwaves. The idea is that the broadcasters don't really own the airwaves, so since they're public property, there can be restrictions on what can be broadcast on them. However for anything in the private sector, like cable, satellite, or cinema, there can be NO such restrictions. Anything of that sort would be unconstitutional and the courts have affirmed this a million times. That's why Howard Stern's now on satellite radio, because the FCC can't do jack sh!t about him there. That is obviously not the case in Ireland, or any other country where a film or video game can be banned.

The US also has defamation laws which limit what can be said/written/broadcast, etc.

Yes. Which has nothing to do with banning a movie because some censor deems it inappropriate.

Boise Moi btw (and some other "bans" or "semi-bans") was allowed to be showed in Private film clubs, mainly the Irish Film Institute in Eustace Street which I regularly used to haunt.

This is similar to Utah's ridiculous alcohol laws. See in Utah, "bars" in the traditional sense are not allowed, there can only be private clubs that serve alcohol. So to enter any actual bar, you have to buy a membership, which is always set at a flat fee, like $8 or something. Visiting your friend and want to go bar hopping? It's $8 for every bar you enter, and it doesn't matter how long you stay there, or the fact that it's very well possible you'll never enter that bar ever again. When my parents came down here, we went to 4 bars. So that'd be $32 for each of them. This also means you can't do things like check out bars looking for your friends, etc. It's a stupid hassle, don't you agree?

Well so is making someone buy a membership to a private film club (which btw, I've never heard of before now) if they only wish to see one film that can only be shown there, and not in a traditional theater.

[Јas]

I'm going to disagree with the use of the word 'banned' here. Baise Moi was refused a classification and so wasn't allowed to be shown in commercial cinemas. Private clubs are (IIRC) still allowed to show such films.

Which is still too much of a restriction. And no such restriction exists in the US.

Anyway, what country doesn't place limits on what can be broadcast?

The US. One of the areas where we are much better off than the rest of the world.

Before you bring up FCC regulations and whatnot, that only applies to things broadcast over PUBLIC airwaves.

You do realise that you've just stated that restricting a film from commercial cinema in Ireland = really bad, but censoring all sorts of things from US commercial TV, etc = ok ?

I didn't say it's OK, nor do I like FCC regulations, I'm just saying it's a completely different situation.

The FCC restrictions only apply to PUBLIC airwaves. The idea is that the broadcasters don't really own the airwaves, so since they're public property, there can be restrictions on what can be broadcast on them. However for anything in the private sector, like cable, satellite, or cinema, there can be NO such restrictions. Anything of that sort would be unconstitutional and the courts have affirmed this a million times. That's why Howard Stern's now on satellite radio, because the FCC can't do jack sh!t about him there. That is obviously not the case in Ireland, or any other country where a film or video game can be banned.

And I'm saying that the situation isn't as completely different as you say. Sure, there's a difference, but it's a fairly nuanced one.

Stern can't broadcast on one form of radio, but can on another.
Baise Moi can't be broadcast in one form of cinema, but can in another.

The US also has defamation laws which limit what can be said/written/broadcast, etc.

Yes. Which has nothing to do with banning a movie because some censor deems it inappropriate.

I disagree. It's simply two different means to achieve the same ends - restriction on speech.
You claimed the US doesn't inhibit free speech. However, I think it's clear that some restrictions do exist.

Now, it may be that the restrictions in the US are less than in Ireland, or more easily overcome. However, I son't accept that there is a great gulf between the two.

[Silent Hunter]

Democracy isn't just about majority rule, it's about freedom and human rights as well.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And I'm saying that the situation isn't as completely different as you say. Sure, there's a difference, but it's a fairly nuanced one.

Stern can't broadcast on one form of radio, but can on another.
Baise Moi can't be broadcast in one form of cinema, but can in another.

Actually he was on mainstream radio until 2006, the stations just got constantly fined. But the analogy still doesn't work.

An appropriate analogy would the government deeming some piece of art "obscene" and ordering it removed from a public government-funded museum vs. requring that piece of art be removed from a private museum. I don't like either, but there's a clear difference. One involves interference with the private sector, the other doesn't.

I disagree. It's simply two different means to achieve the same ends - restriction on speech.
You claimed the US doesn't inhibit free speech. However, I think it's clear that some restrictions do exist.

There are no restrictions that apply to ALL media. None. Only a handful of TV networks (about 6, out of hundreds of channels) and local radio stations have any type of FCC regulations. Everything on cable, satellite radio, and the cinema altogether are completely 100% free of FCC regulation. Not the case in Ireland.

And actually, the discussion is about movies and video games. In which case there is no restrictions on speech, period (other than bans on child pornography)

[Јas]

And I'm saying that the situation isn't as completely different as you say. Sure, there's a difference, but it's a fairly nuanced one.

Stern can't broadcast on one form of radio, but can on another.
Baise Moi can't be broadcast in one form of cinema, but can in another.

Actually he was on mainstream radio until 2006, the stations just got constantly fined. But the analogy still doesn't work.

Ah, so your position is that he still has free speech, he just had to pay fines for saying what he wanted. (A position I would argue is anathema to the idea of free speech.)

I disagree. It's simply two different means to achieve the same ends - restriction on speech.
You claimed the US doesn't inhibit free speech. However, I think it's clear that some restrictions do exist.

There are no restrictions that apply to ALL media. None. Only a handful of TV networks (about 6, out of hundreds of channels) and local radio stations have any type of FCC regulations. Everything on cable, satellite radio, and the cinema altogether are completely 100% free of FCC regulation. Not the case in Ireland.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that in terms of audience reach the stations (TV and radio) under FCC regulation make up the lion's share of the broadcast market.

And surely all those other stations (and I presume, all broadcast media) are still subject to defamation laws.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And I'm saying that the situation isn't as completely different as you say. Sure, there's a difference, but it's a fairly nuanced one.

Stern can't broadcast on one form of radio, but can on another.
Baise Moi can't be broadcast in one form of cinema, but can in another.

Actually he was on mainstream radio until 2006, the stations just got constantly fined. But the analogy still doesn't work.

Ah, so your position is that he still has free speech, he just had to pay fines for saying what he wanted. (A position I would argue is anathema to the idea of free speech.)

Only if done on the public airwaves. Which is equivalent to some government-sponsored forum.

This comparing restrictions of speech in the public sector to the private one is completely comparing apples to oranges. See the museum analogy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that in terms of audience reach the stations (TV and radio) under FCC regulation make up the lion's share of the broadcast market.

In that they reach everyone with a TV, yes, but most people also have cable. For radio the broadcast system is still way different.

And anyway those restrictions only exist still since they're involving public airwaves, so comparing them to restrictions on the private sector is pointless.

And this thread was about video games and movies, in which case the FCC can't do jacksh!t EVER. Video games and movies ARE 100% free of regulation.

And surely all those other stations (and I presume, all broadcast media) are still subject to defamation laws.

Which don't really apply to public figures and aren't that strict at all. Hustler magazine was allowed to print that Jerry Falwell first had sex with his mom and he lost the lawsuit.

I can't even think of the last time there was a serious defamation case.

[Јas]

And I'm saying that the situation isn't as completely different as you say. Sure, there's a difference, but it's a fairly nuanced one.

Stern can't broadcast on one form of radio, but can on another.
Baise Moi can't be broadcast in one form of cinema, but can in another.

Actually he was on mainstream radio until 2006, the stations just got constantly fined. But the analogy still doesn't work.

Ah, so your position is that he still has free speech, he just had to pay fines for saying what he wanted. (A position I would argue is anathema to the idea of free speech.)

Only if done on the public airwaves. Which is equivalent to some government-sponsored forum.

This comparing restrictions of speech in the public sector to the private one is completely comparing apples to oranges. See the museum analogy.

Seems to me that it's a rather arbitrary distinction between public and private airwaves in this case it seems we'll have to agree to disagree on the importance of that distinction.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that in terms of audience reach the stations (TV and radio) under FCC regulation make up the lion's share of the broadcast market.

In that they reach everyone with a TV, yes, but most people also have cable. For radio the broadcast system is still way different.

And anyway those restrictions only exist still since they're involving public airwaves, so comparing them to restrictions on the private sector is pointless.

And this thread was about video games and movies, in which case the FCC can't do jacksh!t EVER. Video games and movies ARE 100% free of regulation.

Well, as I say, it seems to me that your public/private distinction is fairly arbitrary.

You seem terribly caught up in this idea that we are operating under fiercely authoritarian censorship here. In practice, video games and movies are to a very large degree free to do as they like here. Censorship is very rare - in this area of media and in others (consider for example the annual reports of Reporters sans frontieres who consistently rank press freedom in Ireland far ahead of the US - 2007 Report).

You want to limit this debate to the issue of video games and movies where you can claim moral superiority on the issue of free speech.

The reason I feel compelled to reply is because I feel you are hyping up the level of censorship here and because when examining freedom of speech issues as a whole there really isn't a great deal of difference between Ireland and the US (and indeed the Western world in general) and certainly not enough to justify your remarkable patronising tones.

And surely all those other stations (and I presume, all broadcast media) are still subject to defamation laws.

Which don't really apply to public figures and aren't that strict at all. Hustler magazine was allowed to print that Jerry Falwell first had sex with his mom and he lost the lawsuit.

I can't even think of the last time there was a serious defamation case.

The Falwell case though fell on the basis that the advertisement in question was an obvious parody. In which case, the matter would have been dealt with exactly the same over here.

And from what I see here defamation law in Minnesota is very similar to here in Ireland.