Do you oppose school vouchers under ALL circumstances?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No - but they were generally a bad idea.

[Gustaf]

Ebowed: you are very stupid.

How old do you think the earth is?

It wasn't long ago that you criticized BRTD for his argumentative skills. Well.

To answer the question, of course not. School vouchers allow kids from poor backgrounds access to better schools and at the same time introduces competition, which increases quality. It also disallows poor people getting worse quality since there is no room for price competition. Excellent system all in all and used successfully here in Sweden.

[Gabu]

School vouchers are actually one of the issues on which I break from most in my region of the political realm.  Personally, I think that a quality education is one of the most important things a person can ever receive in life, and if a public school in an area is beyond hope, I see no reason why the poor children in the area can't be made able to attend a better school, provided the school is not some religious indoctrination place (which, contrary to what appears to be popular belief, most private schools are not).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

School vouchers are actually one of the issues on which I break from most in my region of the political realm.  Personally, I think that a quality education is one of the most important things a person can ever receive in life, and if a public school in an area is beyond hope, I see no reason why the poor children in the area can't be made able to attend a better school, provided the school is not some religious indoctrination place (which, contrary to what appears to be popular belief, most private schools are not).

Even if they're "religious based" - schools like Lutheran Westland which I wrestled against weren't strict at all.  And then there were private schools like Summit Academy (free private) - basically the palce to go after you'd been kicked out of EVERYWHERE else.

[Ebowed]

Ebowed: you are very stupid.

How old do you think the earth is?

It wasn't long ago that you criticized BRTD for his argumentative skills. Well.

Uh, yeah.  Did you see who I'm talking to here?  Not exactly some sort of person who would be swayed by any sort of reasonable argument.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Firstly - I'll point out that I do oppose the support of government to essentially say "Ok, we've given up on public education to such an extent, that here's some money to go to a private school". That's quite a sad position to be in.

On private colleges/universities - The class distinction in the public system is alive and well in the US and Australia (and I'm sure in other places). I went the University of Illinois - Urbana-Champaign (a very highly regarded public school) - but the students there would make fun of the students at the Springfield campus for not being able to get into UIUC. The same is true in Australia (where all but a few Unis are public) if you went to Sydney or University of New South Wales you'll generally be more highly regarded than if you went to one of the regional universities.

[they don't love you like i love you]

School vouchers are actually one of the issues on which I break from most in my region of the political realm.  Personally, I think that a quality education is one of the most important things a person can ever receive in life, and if a public school in an area is beyond hope, I see no reason why the poor children in the area can't be made able to attend a better school, provided the school is not some religious indoctrination place (which, contrary to what appears to be popular belief, most private schools are not).

Wow, remember when I said you weren't a liberal and you argued against that and got all upset? Well here's another issue I'd use if that thread was still up to argue why you aren't a liberal.

You realize that your position is more right wing than over 60% of Utah voters?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No never, Kinda, Sort of - Many Private schools have an awful "ascendancy" atmosphere to them; like what Snowguy said about "keeping the riff-raff out" but this should not mean parents should be limited in their choices over what sort of schooling to pick for their children.

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

[they don't love you like i love you]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

[John Dibble]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

So it's alright to also hurt the students going to them? Your ideas are ridiculous and your prejudice disgusting. Take your idea of banning public sector jobs for people who have degrees from private schools. Suppose a low income family worked hard to save up as much money as they could to send their children to a prestigious private school in order to give those children a better future. (and yes, there are low income families that do this) One of those children gets a degree in law and wants to become a judge. Why would you deny someone the job they want simply because they went to a private school?

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

You expect logic from BRTD? I just 'debate' with him as a form of meta-humor but I don't see why anyone would seriously debate with him.

[they don't love you like i love you]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

So it's alright to also hurt the students going to them? Your ideas are ridiculous and your prejudice disgusting. Take your idea of banning public sector jobs for people who have degrees from private schools. Suppose a low income family worked hard to save up as much money as they could to send their children to a prestigious private school in order to give those children a better future. (and yes, there are low income families that do this) One of those children gets a degree in law and wants to become a judge. Why would you deny someone the job they want simply because they went to a private school?

If that family cared about their kid, then under this situation they would've sent them to a public school.

[John Dibble]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

So it's alright to also hurt the students going to them? Your ideas are ridiculous and your prejudice disgusting. Take your idea of banning public sector jobs for people who have degrees from private schools. Suppose a low income family worked hard to save up as much money as they could to send their children to a prestigious private school in order to give those children a better future. (and yes, there are low income families that do this) One of those children gets a degree in law and wants to become a judge. Why would you deny someone the job they want simply because they went to a private school?

If that family cared about their kid, then under this situation they would've sent them to a public school.

Wow, you're an arrogant ass. Stop acting like you're all high and mighty and that you know everything. You assume the public schools they could have sent them to are good ones. Suppose they aren't. They sent their kids to a school with a good reputation while making personal sacrifices instead of sending them to a crappy school with no personal sacrifices made - how is that not caring about their kids?

[they don't love you like i love you]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

So it's alright to also hurt the students going to them? Your ideas are ridiculous and your prejudice disgusting. Take your idea of banning public sector jobs for people who have degrees from private schools. Suppose a low income family worked hard to save up as much money as they could to send their children to a prestigious private school in order to give those children a better future. (and yes, there are low income families that do this) One of those children gets a degree in law and wants to become a judge. Why would you deny someone the job they want simply because they went to a private school?

If that family cared about their kid, then under this situation they would've sent them to a public school.

Wow, you're an arrogant ass. Stop acting like you're all high and mighty and that you know everything. You assume the public schools they could have sent them to are good ones. Suppose they aren't. They sent their kids to a school with a good reputation while making personal sacrifices instead of sending them to a crappy school with no personal sacrifices made - how is that not caring about their kids?

If their kid was that bright, they would've gotten great grades in the public schools, regardless of what they were like, which would've made for easy admission to any public university.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If their kid was that bright, they would've gotten great grades in the public schools, regardless of what they were like, which would've made for easy admission to any public university.

Assuming that the kid wasn't bullied, assaulted, or killed by a gang or clique.

[NDN]

Not necessarily. My main problem with vouchers is that private schools have the right to decline admittance to basically anyone they want, and their performance isn't as closely monitored either. If the government regulated them more, I could theoretically support vouchers for private schools. As it stands, I'd really only support "school choice programs" for charter schools or other public schools, since those don't have the same issues.

[Gabu]

You realize that your position is more right wing than over 60% of Utah voters?

Do you realize that I DON'T F**KING GIVE A SH*T WHAT OTHER PEOPLE'S POSITIONS ON AN ISSUE ARE?

I'm normal, by which I mean I actually make my own mind up rather than just going "DAH WHAT DO OTHER PEOPLE IN MY IDEOLOGY THINK I WILL AGREE WITH THEM BECAUSE I SURE DONT WANT A GUY ON THE INTERNET TO TELL ME WHAT MY IDEOLOGY IS".  Your ideology comes from your positions, not the other way around and is irrelevant in every way except to give a brief overview of the general facets of what you think.  At least, that's the case if you aren't f**king retarded.

If their kid was that bright, they would've gotten great grades in the public schools, regardless of what they were like, which would've made for easy admission to any public university.

Not necessarily.  There have been many documented cases where a child's ability for knowledge is far enough above what the school is offering that he or she is attending that the child actually was getting poor grades due to apathy.  The fact is that a school that is unconducive to learning drags down every student, regardless of intelligence.  Raw intelligence is not enough to succeed; proper motivation is at least as large a factor.

[John Dibble]

If their kid was that bright, they would've gotten great grades in the public schools, regardless of what they were like, which would've made for easy admission to any public university.

Not necessarily.  There have been many documented cases where a child's ability for knowledge is far enough above what the school is offering that he or she is attending that the child actually was getting poor grades due to apathy.  The fact is that a school that is unconducive to learning drags down every student, regardless of intelligence.  Raw intelligence is not enough to succeed; proper motivation is at least as large a factor.

I think Gabu sums it up nicer than I could have. BRTD, your black and white notion of "public schools good, private schools bad" seems to be based on some irrational hatred that I can't even begin to guess the source of rather than on any hard facts or logical thought.

[Ban my account ffs!]

BRTD,

You have a problem with taking your personal experiences and extrapolating them out and then you base your views on that.  Not only that, but you take a cut throat 100% black/white view on many issues that clearly are anything but black and white.

I spent 10 years in public schools, 3 in a right wing Christian school and 3 years at a private, Catholic institution and 1 year at a public foreign university.

I don't like being a pompous ass but I think my experience in various school systems is more diverse than yours.  So don't go around spewing out crap when you don't know what you're talking about.

[Gustaf]

9 people voted yes on this but only BRTD is offering up something in the place of arguments to support the position (I don't count Ebowed's "how old is the Earth"-comment). Why are the rest of you opposed to school vouchers under all circumstances?

[Gustaf]

I would also note that contrary to what BRTD claimed and bearing in mind that Gabu is 100% correct on what he says about ideology, etc it IS liberal to support shcool vouchers. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous. You would have to be far-out socialist to come up with ideological arguments against voucher schools.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

Blame the US definition of liberal being more or less social democrat lite for BRTD's positions.

[David S]

You would have to be far-out socialist to come up with ideological arguments against voucher schools.

Bingo!!

[Alcon]

I would also note that contrary to what BRTD claimed and bearing in mind that Gabu is 100% correct on what he says about ideology, etc it IS liberal to support shcool vouchers. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous. You would have to be far-out socialist to come up with ideological arguments against voucher schools.

Then the majority of voters in a number of states are "far-out socialists"?  There is a lot of queasiness in the U.S. about how to approach vouchers to avoid poaching public schools and subsidizing "white flight."  There have also been concerns over adverse selection.  Some people even suggest that vouchers would negatively impact the non-government schools, because the government would exercise more control over them, and they believe all government control to be toxic.  If that doesn't sound like a socialist argument to you, it's because it isn't.

But, why would that matter, since you've apparently already established that anyone who disagrees with you (about an education system I doubt you're all that familiar with, no less) is "far-out socialist"?

[minionofmidas]

Yes. In fact, ALL voters in ALL states of ALL countries are far-out socialists, which is why election results must never be allowed to affect politico-economic decisions.