France, as understood by a Frenchman

[Storebought]

I promise, this will be the last of my general article posts for a while. I just thought that the general politics discussion here had gotten a mite stale since the Edwards VP disappointment.

Anyhow, here's the link:
http://www.understandfrance.org/Sommaire.html

It's more of a search-and-destroy site than an actual article, but it's nonetheless fascinating. Highlights:

(1) French secularism--since 1789 generally, but 1905 by law, France has been an atheistic nation

"...in France, you do not mix religion and society : it is a private domain and no candidate for any public function would ever mention his religious belief, the name of God, etc ; it is absolutely unthinkable that a French president would express his religious beliefs the way US presidents do (particularly George W. Bush) ; at social occasions (dinner party, etc..), it would be considered rude to start a discussion about God and religion, unless a very light and careful one ; the role of the church in social life is extremely limited compared to the U.S.A"

I'm not particularly religious myself, but being surrounded by unbelievers in anything is intensely distressing.

(2) On French Anti-Americanism

"Nevertheless, it is a fact that there is a long tradition of (political) anti-Americanism, especially in the political left wing in Europe (see below and bibliography), the very symbol of it being the magazine Le Monde Diplomatique. It is also a fact that in France, as in other European countries, the words associated with America are not always positive: see a poll. Roger (see below) explains that since the 19th century, Anti-américanism has been a value shared by the whole French society, the only area of consensus between left and right.
But do not take it personally and don't fear any situation where you would be the victim of anti-Americanism : American tourist are never ill-treated and everybody will be friendly with you and, in France, in any poll on " What people do you like the most ", America always ranks #1 or #2... Read a letter about it."

In other words, we Americans should be grateful that a visit to Paris will not include an empty bottle smashed against our skulls...

(3) Americans the French 'admire'

The neo-populists " : Michael Moore (with his picture on the cover) & Jim Hightower
" The joker " : Howard Dean
" The radicals " : Barbara Ehrenreich & Ralph Nader
" The subversives " : Naomi Klein, Trey Parker & Matt Stone
" The new economists " : Paul Krugman
" The cyber-anarchists " : Elie Pariser & Richard Stallman
" The alternatives " : Lori Wallach & Jeremy Rifkin
" The new feminists " : Catherine MacKinnon & Gayle Rubin
" The moralists " : Alfred Ross & Barry Lynn
" The dissidents " : Mitchell Cohen, Michael Walzer, John Podesta & Bob Boorstin
" The Culture rebels " : Sean Penn, Don DeLillo, Chuck Palahniuk, Jay McInerney, Bret Easton Ellis, Dave Eggers, Nan Goldin, R.L.Burnside, Ani DiFranco, Marilyn Manson & Eminem

In other words, they love Americans who share the same psycopathic resentment of the US as the French themselves do. Interestingly, though, no one in France despises--not merely dislikes or lampoons or condescends--their own country in similar fashion.
 
Let me say this much: for some peculiar reason, only the 'Anglo-Saxon' countries (US, UK, Australia, most especially Canada and NZ), particularly the liberal-left political wings thereof, have the capacity for national self-loathing necessary to produce a Michael Moore or a John Pilger. I still haven't found a satisfactory explanation for that observation.

[English]

My experience of the French (I know quite a few) is they believe themselves to be rather more cultured and refined than the rest of us. This is why they loathe what they perceive as the 'redneck' side of America. It's the same in Canada (Quebec hates Alberta). Overall I think the French are quite nice people, if a little snooty. Their government stinks however, I'll still never forgive them for detonating nuclear bombs in the South Pacific in 1995 long after everyone else had abandoned tests there.

[Umengus]

I promise, this will be the last of my general article posts for a while. I just thought that the general politics discussion here had gotten a mite stale since the Edwards VP disappointment.

Anyhow, here's the link:
http://www.understandfrance.org/Sommaire.html

It's more of a search-and-destroy site than an actual article, but it's nonetheless fascinating. Highlights:

(1) French secularism--since 1789 generally, but 1905 by law, France has been an atheistic nation

"...in France, you do not mix religion and society : it is a private domain and no candidate for any public function would ever mention his religious belief, the name of God, etc ; it is absolutely unthinkable that a French president would express his religious beliefs the way US presidents do (particularly George W. Bush) ; at social occasions (dinner party, etc..), it would be considered rude to start a discussion about God and religion, unless a very light and careful one ; the role of the church in social life is extremely limited compared to the U.S.A"

I'm not particularly religious myself, but being surrounded by unbelievers in anything is intensely distressing.

(2) On French Anti-Americanism

"Nevertheless, it is a fact that there is a long tradition of (political) anti-Americanism, especially in the political left wing in Europe (see below and bibliography), the very symbol of it being the magazine Le Monde Diplomatique. It is also a fact that in France, as in other European countries, the words associated with America are not always positive: see a poll. Roger (see below) explains that since the 19th century, Anti-américanism has been a value shared by the whole French society, the only area of consensus between left and right.
But do not take it personally and don't fear any situation where you would be the victim of anti-Americanism : American tourist are never ill-treated and everybody will be friendly with you and, in France, in any poll on " What people do you like the most ", America always ranks #1 or #2... Read a letter about it."

In other words, we Americans should be grateful that a visit to Paris will not include an empty bottle smashed against our skulls...

(3) Americans the French 'admire'

The neo-populists " : Michael Moore (with his picture on the cover) & Jim Hightower
" The joker " : Howard Dean
" The radicals " : Barbara Ehrenreich & Ralph Nader
" The subversives " : Naomi Klein, Trey Parker & Matt Stone
" The new economists " : Paul Krugman
" The cyber-anarchists " : Elie Pariser & Richard Stallman
" The alternatives " : Lori Wallach & Jeremy Rifkin
" The new feminists " : Catherine MacKinnon & Gayle Rubin
" The moralists " : Alfred Ross & Barry Lynn
" The dissidents " : Mitchell Cohen, Michael Walzer, John Podesta & Bob Boorstin
" The Culture rebels " : Sean Penn, Don DeLillo, Chuck Palahniuk, Jay McInerney, Bret Easton Ellis, Dave Eggers, Nan Goldin, R.L.Burnside, Ani DiFranco, Marilyn Manson & Eminem

In other words, they love Americans who share the same psycopathic resentment of the US as the French themselves do. Interestingly, though, no one in France despises--not merely dislikes or lampoons or condescends--their own country in similar fashion.
 
Let me say this much: for some peculiar reason, only the 'Anglo-Saxon' countries (US, UK, Australia, most especially Canada and NZ), particularly the liberal-left political wings thereof, have the capacity for national self-loathing necessary to produce a Michael Moore or a John Pilger. I still haven't found a satisfactory explanation for that observation.

1)France is not a atheistic nation. Majority of french are catholics, "without religion" or muslims (unfortunalty...). And to be an atheistic nation, the french constitution must say that God doesn't exist and it's not the case. And I'm very happy that the role of church in the social life is very limited.

2)Anti-americanism in France? lots of pundits confound anti-americanism and anti-bushism. France, and Europa, hates Bush and his policy. For us, there is a big difference between Bush and amerian people. Consequently, you can hate Bush but like America people. I'm a reader of "le monde diplomatique" and it's exactly: it hates Bush but not america. It's a alter-mondialist magazine (+- 250 000).

3) The only american noted in the list and that french people knows is Michael Moore. And as in USA or UK, his film is a sucess. For the rest of the list, sorry but French people doens't know

[cwelsch]

Well the habit of liberalism (by which I mean classical liberalism and many of its modern descendants) is truth and progress.  It behooves one, then, to be self-critical of all things in order to achieve progress and/or discover truth.  Further, liberalism tends to be more universalist or at least non-nationalist (as opposed to socialism and nihilism which are not universalist but relativist) and combine all of that together and you have people who ideally want to look critically at anything to see if it holds up to how things ought to be.

Of course, it's different as the American leftish folks get closer to soft socialism and a general utilitarian-radical bent instead of an older liberal one.  They are starting to move into a more self-hating role, which you can see in other ways like hating white people or hating men.  It's morphed into an anti-rich, anti-power, anti-system kind of thing because most of those people are themselves somewhat well off.  It's a way to reassure themselves that they're good guys because they hate the people that are wrong.  They see it as hating the people that are wrong, but they ought to simply hate the ideas and acts that are wrong.

The maximization of this liberal criticism tendency, of course, is the libertarians, who tend to be of a specific personality type that stresses critical thinking (as in criticism, not just smarts), comparing/contrasting, and of course rational consistency (it's called NT, in Myers-Briggs lingo, regards of I/E or J/P, but usually J).  That's why libertarians tend to not only criticize this country but basically anyone anywhere that violates specific beliefs about human behavior, and go beyond that to construct their ideal society from scratch (like Locke and the state of nature).  If they don't criticize everyone everywhere, it's not for lack of claiming they do so.


And I like Trey Parker and Matt Stone, South park is hilarious.  Screw you guys, I'm goin' home.



Q: What do you call people from Paris?
A: "Parisites."

[Math]

In France, we have the same rapport with religion than american with sex...

[opebo]

In France, we have the same rapport with religion than american with sex...

Hah, good one!

[Storebought]

This will likely be my last post on the AF, so I might as well place something a touch more interesting to me than the latest Kerry/Edwards DNC turbo-blast fax, I mean, public opinion poll.

A Boston Globe article about a sclerotic and paranoid Western European nation

France gives critical look at its falling influence

The crux of the article:

"The French are aware that they need to find a new energy. They take satisfaction in believing that the American model is wrong, or at least flawed, and that their new energy may be to define themselves against America."

In short, France today is in as dire shape as the US was during the 1970s. But they hate the US to the extent that they are unwilling to consider even the watered-down economic liberalization schemes implemented in Spain and Ireland for fear of becoming 'too American.'

The French elites are so blinded by reflexive ideological hatred that they'd rather see their country rust solid than reform.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

That article couldn't have been run by the Globe.  Not a single reference to Bostin in it anywhere.

[Niles Caulder]

The real resentment of France is that they could have been us: a World Superpower.  It's their own historical baggage that fuels their competitive attitude towards us.  They feel they envisioned the underpinnings of Western Civilization and belong as its cultural and political hub.  They'll never be over the fact Napolean was vanquished.  (Would there ever have been such a thing as Fascism had he not been?)

There is no force on Earth that is going to make France humble enough for us to be able to play completely straight with them, so long as our real sphere of influence conflicts with the one they envision as what could have been...or what ought to be again....

[Storebought]

Are you leaving us, Storebought?

Yep.

I need every waking moment of the day for getting ready for grad school--entrance exams, moving out of state, paying off intractable debts--and this site just draws a tad too much time away from my responsibilities.

But the AF has served its purpose. I am no longer a political junkie; politics, in fact, sickens me a little more each day.

When I signed up, I desperately hated the Democratic Party and spent precious waking hours fretting about how the Democrats (especially Dean) wanted to f* America.  Now, with that ticket headed by Kerry/Edwards, the Democrats will just bore us, not destroy us. So now there's little point in worrying about them anymore.

Not to mention, politicians have less honor than your average gangster, and some of the 'politicians' who participate in this site's Fantasy Elections are no exception. I didn't know ordinary people could be so..dog-like.

In spite of the wannabes, Dave runs a hell of a site--informative and entertaining. And the people who use the Forum itself, except the trolls and a few others, are pretty good, too.

And, I posted so much about France because, well, I'm in Louisiana, and French influence here is ubiquitous.  Unfortunately, most of that influence is deleterious, so I spend my time warning others about it.