Gay Marriage- a general discussion.

[TomatoSoup]

I have one thing to say: Separation of church and state! You hedronormative republicans have to understand that who everyone marries is none of the government's buisness. People should be able to marry who they want. As for bisexualism being a disorder- wow. It's a way of life that just so happens to be no better or worse than being straight. Mass. had the right idea and this idea needs to be expanded to the rest of the country.

[Brambila]

TomatoSoup, this has nothing to do with church and state. This has to do with what the definition of marriage is and why it doesn't apply to gays, and how homosexuals adopting children is a threat to the nation.

[TomatoSoup]

But sex is also clearly for children as well- if you use contraception, you're denying to give life. You're disobeying God, which is why he punished Onan….“And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply…”

Seperation of church and state! It doesn't matter what He said in The Bible, when you are talking about marriage. If you don't want to be gay, don't! That's your decision. Don't get The Bible into this because I have found that arguing about religion is one of the most pointless things I have ever done.
1st)  I never said sex was only for pleasure.

…and your logic is riddled with contradictions:

2nd)  The command given to Adam and Eve to multiply is NOT still in place, otherwise no reproductively viable person would have the right to renounce marriage in favor of chastity.  We have freedoms, like the freedom to eat meat, which Adam and Eve never enjoyed.  Likewise, Adam and Eve didn’t have a choice of whom they were going to marry since they were the only two people on earth, but “there is more than one fish in the sea” for Christians, provided he/she marries a believer.

3rd)  Christians are nonetheless commanded to “bear fruit” and multiply seed (parable of the sower) just as Adam and Eve were commanded to “be fruitful and multiply”.  But the fruit and seed Christians are commanded to multiply is a SPIRITUAL seed, not a physical one.  It is beyond argument that this is the NT fulfillment of the command to “be fruitful and multiply”, for there is no NT command for Christians to have children, hence the right to disavow sex and marriage entirely.

4th)  Even if we were to bind the physical command to multiply on Christians, the command to multiple can’t be interpreted to exclude contraception since it is possible to be BOTH a “multiplier” and a user of contraception.  For example, my wife and I will be having our fourth child around Thanksgiving, at which time she will have her tubes tied.  No one can question that we haven’t “multiplied” by a factor of two, yet we have been users of contraception off and on throughout our ten years of marriage.

5th)  Onan was commanded to be a kinsman redeemer. The kinsman redeemer role is NOT a command of the NT because it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ who is our “redeemer” redeeming his kinsmen, even us.  

6th)  Onan used contraception as the means to avoid fulfilling his role as kinsman redeemer.  But you can’t point to the means as the sin since I can point to dozens upon dozens of methods used throughout the bible to disobey God (e.g.: allowing enemies to live, fleeing on a boat, striking a rock with a rod, etc), yet you would never point to those methods as sinful within themselves once removed from the context of the command given to the individual in question.

[Brambila]

I was talking to Jcmfst about CHristian Ethics on contraception, NOT homosexuality. I personally think that homosexual sex and contraception is a sin, but I'm not going to stop anyone from doing that in the bedroom.

[Kodratos]

I doubt TomatoSoup is twelve, what with his aim account and e-mail. If he is then his parents need a good slapping.

[TomatoSoup]

I think I am going to stop debating this thread because once we get into The Bible, the debate becomes fruitless. By the way, I'm being raised athiest, so all this is meaningless to me. If we could stick to politics, that'd be great.

[Josh/Devilman88]

soup welcome to the real world where people believe in God..

[Brambila]

I think I am going to stop debating this thread because once we get into The Bible, the debate becomes fruitless. By the way, I'm being raised athiest, so all this is meaningless to me. If we could stick to politics, that'd be great.

TomatoSoup, how many times am I going to have to sat that I am not arguing biblically at all. I was arguing biblically about contraception to a CHRISTIAN, but that didn't have to do with the debate. I think homosexuality is a disorder becuase of psychological research, not the bible.

[TomatoSoup]

soup welcome to the real world where people believe in God..

No offense meant, but when it comes to religion people are reaaly stubborn. Let's just debate the politics. I'm going to try to get my friend (goes by akno21 in the forums) in here. He's better at this than I am.

[lolitsadam]

soup welcome to the real world where people believe in God..

Did you seriously just say that?  I thought over 10% of Americans belonged to secular religions/belief systems.

[Josh/Devilman88]

soup welcome to the real world where people believe in God..

Did you seriously just say that?  I thought over 10% of Americans belonged to secular religions/belief systems.

What america are you in more like 75% believe in God..

[John Dibble]

I thought it was about 80% various Christian denominations, 10% atheist/agnostic, 10% other religions.

[Kodratos]

soup welcome to the real world where people believe in God..

Did you seriously just say that?  I thought over 10% of Americans belonged to secular religions/belief systems.

What america are you in more like 75% believe in God..

I think closer to 90% believe in God.

[TomatoSoup]

What percent of America is athiest isn't important. What is is that the US should make it legal. If christians think it's against their religion, they don't have to do it, but for that 10% of athiests, shouldn't they have the option?

[Akno21]

If a gay marriage opponent can successfully answer this question, I may just stop bothering them with it.
If your neighbor is gay and is married to another gay person, how does that harm you?

[ATFFL]

What percent of America is athiest isn't important. What is is that the US should make it legal. If christians think it's against their religion, they don't have to do it, but for that 10% of athiests, shouldn't they have the option?

What about sects that favor human sacrifice?  Slavery?  Polygamy?

Also, athiests are les than 10%, agnostics are in there as well.

[TomatoSoup]

If human sacrafice is part of your religion, you shouldn't be able to do it because it violates other's rights. Gay marriage doesn't violate anyone's rights. To compare the two, even put them in the same league is bogus and insulting. You also haven't answered akno's question.

[Josh/Devilman88]

If human sacrafice is part of your religion, you shouldn't be able to do it because it violates other's rights. Gay marriage doesn't violate anyone's rights. To compare the two, even put them in the same league is bogus and insulting. You also haven't answered akno's question.

Well if you say gay people can get married, then who are we to say a father can't married his son. Or that 5 people can't get married? We need to draw a line.. and gay marriage is where the line get drawn

[danwxman]

If human sacrafice is part of your religion, you shouldn't be able to do it because it violates other's rights. Gay marriage doesn't violate anyone's rights. To compare the two, even put them in the same league is bogus and insulting. You also haven't answered akno's question.

Well if you say gay people can get married, then who are we to say a father can't married his son. Or that 5 people can't get married? We need to draw a line.. and gay marriage is where the line get drawn

The line is drawn where there is no consent. Two consenting gay adults should be allowed to get married.

[MarkDel]

What is wrong with some of you people..you are attempting to engage in intellectual debate with a 12 year old kid who has pictures of the President of the United States next to monkeys in all of his posts...LOL

[Kodratos]

If human sacrafice is part of your religion, you shouldn't be able to do it because it violates other's rights. Gay marriage doesn't violate anyone's rights. To compare the two, even put them in the same league is bogus and insulting. You also haven't answered akno's question.

Well if you say gay people can get married, then who are we to say a father can't married his son. Or that 5 people can't get married? We need to draw a line.. and gay marriage is where the line get drawn

The line is drawn where there is no consent. Two consenting gay adults should be allowed to get married.

A father and son can both be adults. Can they get married to each other? A Mother and Daughter? Mother and son? Grandfather and grandson?

[Akno21]

What is wrong with some of you people..you are attempting to engage in intellectual debate with a 12 year old kid who has pictures of the President of the United States next to monkeys in all of his posts...LOL

Why should intellectual prowess be determined by age?

[Kodratos]

What is wrong with some of you people..you are attempting to engage in intellectual debate with a 12 year old kid who has pictures of the President of the United States next to monkeys in all of his posts...LOL

Why should intellectual prowess be determined by age?

The only reason you're saying that is because he agrees with you. The kid needs better supervision by his parents. He has an e-mail, an aim account, and lurks around internet message boards.

[Akno21]

What is wrong with some of you people..you are attempting to engage in intellectual debate with a 12 year old kid who has pictures of the President of the United States next to monkeys in all of his posts...LOL

Why should intellectual prowess be determined by age?

The only reason you're saying that is because he agrees with you. The kid needs better supervision by his parents. He has an e-mail, an aim account, and lurks around internet message boards.

If you honestly think that it is radical or a bad mark on parents for a kid to have an email account and and AIM account, you really need to to get with the times.  

[MarkDel]

What is wrong with some of you people..you are attempting to engage in intellectual debate with a 12 year old kid who has pictures of the President of the United States next to monkeys in all of his posts...LOL

Why should intellectual prowess be determined by age?

Maybe it was the monkeys that were a dead giveaway, but the maturity level for THIS particular 12-year old is very much in question.