Gay Marriage- a general discussion.

[The Duke]

First of all, homosexuals can't reproduce. Second of all, the American Academy of Pediatrics says the adopted children of homosexuals show no real variances from other children. But I'm sure an exhaustively conducted study by a mainstream medical organization doesn't count because it's, according to several staunch conservatives, liberal.

If you allow homosexuals marriage rights, they can adopt, no?  This is basically the same as if they could produce children on their own.

I have no opinion on the American Association of Pediatrics, since I don't know much about them.  That said, I am suspicious that they found NO difference in these children.  If I was raised Catholic, I'd come out different than if raised Jewish.  Not necessarily worse or better, but different for sure.  The idea that an even more drastic difference in a person's environment had ZERO impact seems a bit fishy, almost as if the study was commissioned soley for the purpose of reaching a preordained conclusion.

[John Dibble]

I think when they say they find no difference, it basically means they are well balanced, healthy individuals(no psychological problems, productive members of society, ect.), not that they might not have any cultural or ideological differences.

[Brambila]

That is not exclusive to homosexuals. You can find condoms in vending machines in bars regardless of the sexual orientation of the patrons. You can see shop windows bedizened with the apparati of gratification, including ones used by heterosexuals. And there is no need for any reminder about the multi-billion dollar predominantly heterosexual pornography industry.

I also think you are very misinformed when you think we cannot love. I have know lust, the same as anyone, but I have been lucky to know love too. That love was built on concern and respect, not sex. Sex is a transient thrill, but love sustains us. And if any of you are fortunate enough to have loved, regardless of who it is, be grateful for it every day.

I'm sure homosexuals can love, Migrendel. But their love is not mature enough, because they have the disorder defining it. In the same way, pedophiles love. They certainly have the ability to love, but the love is disordered, sexual, and immature; just like a child's, and just like a homosexual's.

Secondly, although you can find condoms and the such in secular bars, but the point is that these things are exclusively in homosexual areas, and are the biggest industries in homosexual areas. It's a fact that a large number of homosexuals have over a thousand partners in a lifetime (Weinburg, 1978).

[Fritz]

I'm sure homosexuals can love, Migrendel. But their love is not mature enough, because they have the disorder defining it. In the same way, pedophiles love. They certainly have the ability to love, but the love is disordered, sexual, and immature; just like a child's, and just like a homosexual's.

Brambila, I am sick to death of you comparing homosexuality to pedophilia.  The two have nothing in common.  Homosexuals love each other in the same way heterosexuals love each other.  Pedophiliacs cannot love in this manner, because the recipient of the love (the child) does not share the feelings.

[John Dibble]

Brambila,

I know I said the debate was over, but I guess not - I call into question the validity of the Weinberg 1978 study.

1. The study is from 1978 - during the 1960's and 1970's, people were less aware of AIDS and other STDS, awareness today have likely driven both heterosexual and homosexual number of partners down. The numbers may not reflect today.

2. I have been looking for research methods on this study, and have found a few snipits(though not enough to raise a complete critique of the study). Both the homosexual sample and the control heterosexual sample were not truly random, and all were performed in in San Francisco alone(would not be representative of the true national homosexual population, as I believe you yourself said in referring to population percentage). The homosexual group was composed of volunteers collected by paid recruiters, and the heterosexual control group of 284 was collected by going door to door(hardly random, since it only represents whatever areas they went door to door).

3. I have seen the study referred to next to a population percentage saying that homosexuals were 10 to 20 percent of the population - which we both know is a big fallacy.

4. The study is in direct contridiction with the previous study you linked(the one concerning percentage molested or abused), though in this case I think the Weinberg study is definitely more accurate, so this one is calling into question the validity of the other study you linked, now that I've taken another look at it to compare the two studies. The Weignberg study says that 4.9% of the homosexuals reported "prepubertal sexual experience with a male adult involving physical contact" compared to 2.5% heterosexual males. The other study you linked reports 49.2 percent of homosexual men were molested, but it also reports 24.4 percent of heterosexual men were molested - a ludicrous percentage. The difference in both is about a 2 to 1 ratio, but obviously at least one study does not reflect the true population. Also the populations in this study were 124 homosexual men, 205 heterosexual men - for a study to be accurate the control and experimental groups should be of the same size.

So, if you continue to insist on using the Weinberg study to support your arguments, please prove it is a valid study.

[migrendel]

I shall simply disregard that statement about the maturity of love, Brambila. For you to say that reveals more about your lack of knowledge about this topic than anything else.

[Brambila]

Firstly, I never said that homosexuals can't love. That's silly. Of course they can. However, their love is immature, or to change the wording, their love is distracted by their immense urge for sexuality. Now let us address pedophiles- yes, they can love too. Sure, the child does not love back, but they can love. Correct? But what is this love? Is it mature love? Is it healthy love? These items must be taken into consideration, because if this love is distracted, we certainly wouldn't want that to happen.

1. Yes, the study was done in 1978. But that doesn't mean now that we know more about AIDS homosexuals are going to have sex less often. That just means they might use condoms. Contraceptives in 1978 were not common. Today, they're everywhere. 80% of Americans use them.

2. I'd like you to show me this information you've gotten. Just in case you didn't know, MS Weinburg has written several books on homosexuality (supporting it), and is a member of the pro-homosexual Kinsey Institute, who sponsored the study. I looked for a website with the words "Weinburg" and "San Francisco", and the only thing I found was a website that showed Weinburg's source for a different study, which was done with 500 white homosexuals (interesting study!). However, the Weinburg study was done with 1400 people, including about 635 homosexuals, and was nation-wide I believe. I could see the confusion though, since most of the studies in the book were done in the bay area. Where are you getting this information?

However, for the sake of the debate, I can show you a different study. Journal of Sex Research reported in their study "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," (done with 2,500 older homosexual men) that 10%-15% of homosexual men had between 500-1000 partners, and an additional 10-15% had more than a thousand in their life. This is an enormous number, and not that much different from AP Bell and MS Weinburg's study.


3. Good. I'm glad.

4. Actually, the study does not say that these men were molested, it said that these men were abused- this could be physical, mental, or sexual. I believe that 25% of men were abused. Further, I believe that 50% of homosexuals were abused. I told you from the beginning that homosexuals were twice more likely to be abused than heterosexuals, and this is sound. Again, I'll show a separate study for the sake of the argument. In a study of almost 300 homosexual and bisexual men with AIDS, the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) reported that half of all the AIDS cases had comitted sexual acts with men by the age of sixteen, and 20% by the age of ten. A 1992 study by Child Abuse & Neglect found that 42% of 1001 homosexual men had met the critria for being sexually abused as children. These are enormous numbers, and undoubtedly prove without warrent that homosexuality is caused from problems in the childhood. Also, no they don't have to be exactly the same numbers, as long as they are around the same range and above a certain amount. Believe me, these people know what they are doing. The ones doing the studies were pro-homosexual.

For your last statement, I find it ironic that you first say that the Weinburg study is invalid because it took place in San Francisco (which isn't true for the study I pointed out), but then you say that the Weinburg study IS valid when it agrees with you.

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Migrendel, do you honestly know that? Do you really think that is true? How are you supposed to make such a statement. You don't know who I am.

[Tory]

I don't see a problem with homosexual marriage. If you are religious then think of it this way. Everyone has thier judgement day. If somebody wants to live a sinful life, then that is thier problem, not yours. Many conservatives seem to think that homosexual marriage is going to turn more people into homosexuals. That is obviously a completely ludicrous assumption. It isn't society's job to teach your child morals, it's yours!

The only problem I have is that I do not think that homosexual couples should have the right to adopt. By placing a child in a homosexual couple's care, the government is sending a bad message to that child. It is simply unnatural for two men or women to have children. That is an inarguable point. It also isn't healthy for a child to have to deal with the issues that come about when placed in the care of a homosexual couple.

[migrendel]

Sexual fixation? Now, I enjoy sex just as much as the next person, but I have loved for reasons other than sex. I don't see how you can call it immature and categorically dismiss it, because it is a love you have never experienced. Science is an excellent tool, but when you attempt to place such a judgment upon the most personal feelings, you enter a place where it cannot quantify the most elusive and quicksilver thing of all, human love.

[John Dibble]

1. Ok, thanks for the correction, my data was probably off due to the 'Weinberg' mistake. I'll look up 'Weinburg' later if I have time. I'm still bothered by one thing - how exactly do these people keep count of how many partners they have? Seriously - 500 to 1000 - wouldn't they stop counting at some point? Would it not be possible, even probable, that they overestimated the number of partners they had. It also seems unlikely, considering they likely do not move around the country much, that there are that many partners available to the average homosexual. This may mean that they have had the same partner many times, but these people being extra permiscuous, they likely do not remember their partners after one-night stands, so they have the same partner multiple times[I might be convinced to count each of these encounters as 'extra partners' for each one, but not completely because these repeat encounters would only occur with the really promiscuous ones, outing the more average homosexual male]. Just some food for thought about why those numbers may be higher than they actually are(200 partners, for instance, would be less questionable, and within the realm of possibility). Just some food for thought about why the nubmers might be so high. Also, most of the homosexuals I know aren't really permiscuous, how about the ones you know?(I know this isn't scientific, just comparing personal experiences)

2. Since it wasn't the Weinburg study, the info wasn't relevant, so the Weinberg study is likely innacurate, but I have yet to confirm the Weinburg study either way.

3. nothing to be said

4. Actually, yes the study was only about molestation - not once in the study you linked was the word 'abuse' used. The title is "Comparative Data of Childhood and Adolescence Molestation in Heterosexual and Homosexual Persons", if you meant to link a different study then link it. I refuse to believe that 25% of all heterosexual men were molested or even just abused - our society would be much less stable if that was so.

5. Just a comment on a general problem with ALL studies on homosexuals(even the more valid ones). Studies like these have the fundamental problem that they do not include in the closet homosexuals or homosexuals that are admitted, just that they don't advertise it much. It is much harder to find a wide range of participants, so the likeliness of getting more extreme cases is higher. Keep that in mind whenever reading a study(even if it is favorable to your view).

[Brambila]

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Once again, not only are you using an emotional argument, but you're making a logical flaw. You assume at a personal level that I am straight. Now I’m not saying I am homosexual, but you shouldn't assume that I have not experienced same-sex attraction. When I speak to homosexual teens struggling with their sexuality, they most of the time change the definition of love between same-sex attraction and natural attraction. They call same-sex attraction predominantly or purely sexual. However, when it comes to natural attraction, they make it more as if though they want to give something to them, like they want to make that person happy. Now, I understand that homosexuals (and I'm sure you do this) have attraction in the same way as natural attraction, but I was using teenagers as my sample because their sexuality is unstable. As they get older, their sexuality develops into something more characteristic and seemingly exclusive to the individual. Nonetheless, statistics show that this love is truly promiscuous and not stable. The sexual revolution has sanctioned them in having arbitrary sexual encounters, regardless of the physical and psychological risks involved. Certainly, human love is difficult to define, but if we’re basing human love predominantly on sexual experience, then we’re not having true love.

Although it is an important factor in love, sexual experience is not love, and neither does it define love. But when we go to homosexual regions, the entire premise uplifts the ultimate goal of sexual pleasure. I can show you mere pictures of the Castro district in San Francisco, and you’ll see everything is about sex. Sex shops; porn movie theatres; gay bars; condoms are sold everywhere; pornography is showed everywhere; all the advertisements contain some sort of sexual message, be it a phone sex line or phone numbers to help teenagers legally and financially to get a sex change. The bounds are endless. Do you see homosexuals who are not feminine? Not often. Do you see homosexuals who intend on staying virgins? Not often. It’s further often that you see homosexuals who molest children or have sexual attraction towards very young teenagers.

During the Catholic Church’s scandal last year, the largest amounts of sexual abuse cases were homosexual ones. Many homosexual Catholics did not want to sin, and so joined the priesthood in an attempt to stay away from sin. However, this ended up causing more problems, and mounting child molestation cases.

I do not blame homosexuals, however, for this problem. It is not their fault at all. The problem is that the sexual revolution has mugged homosexuals of their freedom, and has trapped them in sexual obsession. The APA is now one of the leading authors of sexual problems in America, and in the same way that the homosexuals took over the APA in 1971, I believe that pedophiles will also begin fighting for rights. The APA has already released statements saying that children like to be sexually molested, and that it has no psychological risks. Though the APA recalled that statement, their intent still remains. The signs of such a change are on its way- the same symptoms that the APA got in the late 60s, which lead to the takeover of the organization by homosexuals. This neo-APA is fully responsible for the problems we see with homosexuals today-- their reduced lifespan, domestic violence, promiscuity, health problems, child molestation, and suicidal urges.

John Dibble:

1. (1/2/3)- I’m sure homosexuals have lost count, but they didn’t ask homosexuals “how many partners did you have, exactly?” they asked them something to the extent of
“of the following ranges, which come closest to your amount of unique sexual encounters? 0-100, 101-500, 501-1000, over 1000?” I’m sure they are able to count. And if they can’t, that is evidence enough that they are clearly promiscuous. But let me tell you once more, AP BELL and MS WEINBURG are pro-homosexual. Their book was for the positive study of homosexuality, approved by the APA.

2. Dibble, the point I’m trying to prove is how our society is unstable! The statistic is accurate. If you don’t wish to believe it, don’t.

4. Of course. However, I don’t believe that these “closet homosexuals” are actually homosexual. You are only homosexual if you have homosexual sex. Otherwise, you have same-sex attraction. However, the homosexual movement is trying to get these closet homosexuals, who have not had sexual encounters with the same sex, to begin doing so. Hence, it’s all promiscuity in the end.

[Schmitz in 1972]

I don't see a problem with homosexual marriage. If you are religious then think of it this way. Everyone has thier judgement day. If somebody wants to live a sinful life, then that is thier problem, not yours. Many conservatives seem to think that homosexual marriage is going to turn more people into homosexuals. That is obviously a completely ludicrous assumption. It isn't society's job to teach your child morals, it's yours!

The only problem I have is that I do not think that homosexual couples should have the right to adopt. By placing a child in a homosexual couple's care, the government is sending a bad message to that child. It is simply unnatural for two men or women to have children. That is an inarguable point. It also isn't healthy for a child to have to deal with the issues that come about when placed in the care of a homosexual couple.

I agree with everything you say Troy except for "Everyone has thier judgement day. If somebody wants to live a sinful life, then that is thier problem, not yours." As Christians we must strive to set people right when they commit sins instead of letting them suffer on judgement day.

[John Dibble]

Brambila:

I'm now convinced you are a complete moron. If the molestation study was accurate, I could pull a random 4 guys off the street and chances are one of them was molested. Think about it, 1 in 4, ONE IN FOUR, our society would be much worse than it is now if that was the case. That is complete and utter bull and you know it. I don't think you know a damn thing about science or society, or even people in general. I don't think debating with you will profit anyone, so I'm ignoring you in this thread from now on. Good day to you, and I hope you get over your ignorance.

[John Dibble]

Brambila:

I apologize for my rudeness in the last post. Today has not been one of my better days. But I seriously think your views are skewed beyond normality.

[Brambila]

John Dibble, I provided you additional statistics. If you don't believe it, okay.

[John Dibble]

The thing about statistics is they are often abused or wrong. You have to be careful about what statistics you accept(like that 10% population one).

On another note, I'd like to point out to you that they homosexual culture in San Fransisco is not reflective of the homosexual culture in other areas. Midtown Atlanta has a heavy homosexual population, but it is not as you describe San Fransisco to be. It may be the case that many of the more flagrant(I suppose you could say stereotypical) homosexuals move to San Francisco and the more conservative ones stay in other areas.

[Brambila]

I've been to Los Angeles, San Francisco, Guerneville, Seattle, and Vancouver. I've seen pictures of Denver, NEw York, and Boston. It's all the same. I don't know about Atlanta specifically, but the majority are like that.

[migrendel]

I'm sure that there are places like you described, Brambila. But I can tell you, in any city, there are districts where pornography is sold and screened, where sex toys are offered to the consumer, where prostitution is practiced, and contraception is vended. But it is done by heterosexuals. The fact is, there is a segment of the population regardless of sexual orientation that patronizes such establishments. In addition, you bring up the argument that there are homosexuals that molest teenagers of the same gender. There are heterosexuals who molest teenagers of a different gender. The things that you seem to be upset about are less homosexual things, and could be better described as behaviors practiced by certain segments of the population cutting across the line of orientation.

What's wrong with having quite a few sexual partners? No one has brought that up. It seems to be a sacred cow, something that cannot be questioned, but if you are careful not to spread disease, what arguments can be made against it other than that you might think it's immoral? I'm sure many people would prefer erotic variation to fidelity.

[Brambila]

Migrendel, it's undoubtable that there are heterosexual sex shops, porn theatres, et cetera. However, these homosexual items are exclusively found in homosexual areas and are the most vital part of a homosexual region. And concerning your argument about teenage molestation, most molestation is homosexual molestation. Further, homosexuals account for 1/3 of all child molestation acts, even though they make up only 3-6% of the population!

Finally, concerning having a few sexual partners, this proves the promiscuity of homosexuals, and thus disorder of them. They are sexual addicts.

[John Dibble]

Brambila - of course homosexual sex shops are in homosexual areas, they prefer to be close to their clientel. A shop like that would make little money out where there were no customers. The only reason you more likely see heterosexual shops spread out is because heterosexuals are everywhere. You would more likely see a store selling asian goods in chinatown than you would in an area populated by, oh, say hispanics(where you'd be more likely to see goods pertaining to whatever hispanic community it is, such as Mexicans or Cubans, and they'd probably have their sex shops too).

Also, you may not notice sex shops for other cultures, because they might be more discreetly marked, because most of their clients(often straight whites) do not wish to bring notice to themselves by going there. Different cultures approach sexuality differently. Mainstream American culture tends to be keep sex behind closed doors(comparatively to the rest of the world, European cultures have much more liberal attitudes than we do). The Japanese, now there's some sexually open people - as I understand it it is perfectly acceptable there to read porn on a subway train. Perhaps you see these shops because the homosexual culture in general is not ashamed of sex as you are.

[Brambila]

That's irrelevent. For a small homosexual population, they've got an awfully huge amount of sex shops! It is not only exclusive to homosexual areas, but exclusive to their sex culture. It's clearly disordered.

[John Dibble]

No, that's not irrelavent. If their population is mainly clustered in urban areas(particular areas of cities) then their sex shops will be clustered. And, as I said, could just be a cultural thing - the Atlanta homosexual areas do not have such shops. Cultures in different cities and regions are inherently different. In the south there is a more socially conservative atmosphere, in California there is a more liberal one. You mention seeing pictures of New York - I've been there, the only sex shops, strip joints, ect. that I saw were heterosexual ones and they were quite common. So, is New York disordered because they have an abundance of sex shops?

[migrendel]

There's a reason why all those sex shops are in one area. It has to do with zoning. The Supreme Court ruled in the case of Young v. American Mini Theatres that cities have a right to regulate the spacing of places that sell pornography and sexually related merchandise. San Francisco might have designated a few small areas, and the ones with predominantly homosexual patronage might be located in that particular area, because of the concentration of people of that affiliation in that area.

As for them being sexual addicts, I guess that's something that they can come together with Newt Gingrich on in a bipartisan coalition.

[Brambila]

I don't know about Atlanta (that site seems pretty sex-oriented); it may be an exception, but the point is that homosexual regions are predominantly like this. This, however, is a small dab in the big painting. Homosexuals as I've shown have enourmous amounts of promiscuity. Homosexuality is not normal.


One aspect of homosexuality is the fact that they cannot control their sexuality. Again, AP Bell and MS Weinburg reported that 25% of homosexual white men had sex with children sixteen or under. One study stated "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2 to 4% of men attracted to adults prefer men; in contrast, around 25 to 40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6 to 20 times higher among pedophiles."  (Archives of Sexual Behavior, "Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles"). Another study done by Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy showed that homosexual men are three times more likely to molest children than heterosexual men. A gay magazine, The Gay Report, found that 73% of homosexuals had at sometime had sex with children sixteen to nineteen or younger.

I suppose I could keep throwing statistics, but it's not going to change anyone's minds.

[migrendel]

Well, Brambila, I'm sure you're aware that I support lowering the age of consent to 13 or 14, because I believe mature minors are entitled to sexual liberty and privacy (q.v. Carey v. Population Services International, and the age of maturity in common law as practiced, 14). This has been pulled of in several European countries with nary a hitch.