The Bible and Homosexuality

[Josh/Devilman88]

I know we might have discuss this before, but I want to know more about this subject. What does the Bible really have to say about it? I really don't want to debate this subject at all, just want the facts. Could someone help me and explain it where I can understand it.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

The Bible says a man shall not lay with another man; same for women.  I know it says other things, but I can't think of them at the moment.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Oh dear.

*hides*

[afleitch]

It depends how what is written is read.

Best to read the discussion here.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=64550.30

[The Mikado]

The Bible says a man shall not lay with another man; same for women.  I know it says other things, but I can't think of them at the moment.

Actually, the only mention of lesbianism is in St. Paul's letter to the Romans, not in the famed Leviticus 18:20 mentioned above.  Lesbianism isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Old Testament.

In I Corinthians, Paul says that effeminate men will not get into Heaven.

Actually, the condemnation of homosexuality goes into far more intricate passages.  Genesis 19 implies that Sodom was destroyed for condoning that practice (and showing really, really bad hospitality), and though the crime of Ham in Genesis 9 is not made clear (Ham "saw his father's nakedness" while Noah was drunk, and Noah "saw what was done to him" and cursed Ham's son Caanan), the Bible does use "saw _____'s nakedness" as an euphenism for sex, could be viewed as a statement that Ham raped his father, leading to the severity of the curse.

On the other hand, David loved Jonathan...let me find the phrase...ah yes..."Thy love was wonderful to me, passing the love of woman."  And David loved a lot of women, so Jonathan must've been one special guy.

[Joe Republic]

I know we might have discuss this before...

Nope, I don't think so.

[Hash]

Oh dear.

*hides*

Here we go again.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

The Bible says a man shall not lay with another man; same for women.  I know it says other things, but I can't think of them at the moment.

Actually, the only mention of lesbianism is in St. Paul's letter to the Romans, not in the famed Leviticus 18:20 mentioned above.  Lesbianism isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Old Testament.

In I Corinthians, Paul says that effeminate men will not get into Heaven.

Actually, the condemnation of homosexuality goes into far more intricate passages.  Genesis 19 implies that Sodom was destroyed for condoning that practice (and showing really, really bad hospitality), and though the crime of Ham in Genesis 9 is not made clear (Ham "saw his father's nakedness" while Noah was drunk, and Noah "saw what was done to him" and cursed Ham's son Caanan), the Bible does use "saw _____'s nakedness" as an euphenism for sex, could be viewed as a statement that Ham raped his father, leading to the severity of the curse.

On the other hand, David loved Jonathan...let me find the phrase...ah yes..."Thy love was wonderful to me, passing the love of woman."  And David loved a lot of women, so Jonathan must've been one special guy.

If you're implying that David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, I'm inclined to disagree with you.  The Rabbis have never considered the idea, and it is not mentioned in the text.  Also, my Bar Mitzvah passage was the Noah story, and I do not think that Ham raped Noah, as you seem to say.  Rather, I think Ham was just making fun of his drunk and naked dad.

[J. J.]

First, I do not consider the story of Lot to be a reference to homosexuality, as the men of Sodom brought their wives and children with them.  Sorry, but I doubt that the men of Sodom could have procreated without the women of Sodom.

Second, some of the NT references are strong, but so was what St. Paul said about marriages.  Something like:  "Good is a man that is married; better is a man that is single."

I'm not hugely convinced that there is true biblical injunction and really want to know why people have a sexual orientation.

[The Mikado]

The Bible says a man shall not lay with another man; same for women.  I know it says other things, but I can't think of them at the moment.

Actually, the only mention of lesbianism is in St. Paul's letter to the Romans, not in the famed Leviticus 18:20 mentioned above.  Lesbianism isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Old Testament.

In I Corinthians, Paul says that effeminate men will not get into Heaven.

Actually, the condemnation of homosexuality goes into far more intricate passages.  Genesis 19 implies that Sodom was destroyed for condoning that practice (and showing really, really bad hospitality), and though the crime of Ham in Genesis 9 is not made clear (Ham "saw his father's nakedness" while Noah was drunk, and Noah "saw what was done to him" and cursed Ham's son Caanan), the Bible does use "saw _____'s nakedness" as an euphenism for sex, could be viewed as a statement that Ham raped his father, leading to the severity of the curse.

On the other hand, David loved Jonathan...let me find the phrase...ah yes..."Thy love was wonderful to me, passing the love of woman."  And David loved a lot of women, so Jonathan must've been one special guy.

If you're implying that David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, I'm inclined to disagree with you.  The Rabbis have never considered the idea, and it is not mentioned in the text.  Also, my Bar Mitzvah passage was the Noah story, and I do not think that Ham raped Noah, as you seem to say.  Rather, I think Ham was just making fun of his drunk and naked dad.

Eh, the Jonathan/David thing was just teasing.

But seriously, you think Noah cursed his grandson (and descendants thereof) to eternal slavery because Ham laughed at his dad's penis?  Damn, that's a harsh family.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

The Bible says a man shall not lay with another man; same for women.  I know it says other things, but I can't think of them at the moment.

Actually, the only mention of lesbianism is in St. Paul's letter to the Romans, not in the famed Leviticus 18:20 mentioned above.  Lesbianism isn't mentioned one way or the other in the Old Testament.

In I Corinthians, Paul says that effeminate men will not get into Heaven.

Actually, the condemnation of homosexuality goes into far more intricate passages.  Genesis 19 implies that Sodom was destroyed for condoning that practice (and showing really, really bad hospitality), and though the crime of Ham in Genesis 9 is not made clear (Ham "saw his father's nakedness" while Noah was drunk, and Noah "saw what was done to him" and cursed Ham's son Caanan), the Bible does use "saw _____'s nakedness" as an euphenism for sex, could be viewed as a statement that Ham raped his father, leading to the severity of the curse.

On the other hand, David loved Jonathan...let me find the phrase...ah yes..."Thy love was wonderful to me, passing the love of woman."  And David loved a lot of women, so Jonathan must've been one special guy.

If you're implying that David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship, I'm inclined to disagree with you.  The Rabbis have never considered the idea, and it is not mentioned in the text.  Also, my Bar Mitzvah passage was the Noah story, and I do not think that Ham raped Noah, as you seem to say.  Rather, I think Ham was just making fun of his drunk and naked dad.

Eh, the Jonathan/David thing was just teasing.

But seriously, you think Noah cursed his grandson (and descendants thereof) to eternal slavery because Ham laughed at his dad's penis?  Damn, that's a harsh family.

Noah got Old Testament on Ham's ass

[opebo]

Gawd, through his scriptures, gives his ringing endorsement to homosexuality, and failing that, heterosexual buggery.

All the brutal slaughter of homosexuals by christians over the centuries can be attributed to a perversion of Gawd's words by a secret order known only as the Popus Day.

[J. J.]

Opebo's been sucking down the communion wine again.

[7,052,770]

The Bible says a lot of crazy things when you pull out individual verses.

[Person Man]

I am pretty fascinated by the many interpretations of 1Corinthians 6:9.


KJV-
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


BBE-
Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,


ESV-
 Or do you not know that the unrighteous [2] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [

[afleitch]

I am pretty fascinated by the many interpretations of 1Corinthians 6:9.


KJV-
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


BBE-
Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,


ESV-
 Or do you not know that the unrighteous [2] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [

Quite. I'll quote myself on this one

Now here, the use of the word 'homosexual' is contestable; the word is only 150 years old. If you're not sure about what a word a means, or why it is used then it is important to go back to the source of that word, ancient Greek where the word that is now substituted for 'homosexual' is 'arsenokoites'

Now what does 'arsenokoites' actually mean as opposed to the word homosexual?

The Bible has been reproduced more than any other book in history years and while rare early manuscripts do survive. From those we can deduce that not only were single words translated and interpreted differently throughout time, but so too were whole passages and as a result the context was often lost. The word 'arsenokoites' was added to, extended by prefix or suffix to change it's meaning over time and these changes can be checked against each other by comparison. When we translate directly the surviving 1st Century examples of Corinthians and Timothy into English, looking at the word 'arsenokoites' and the words surrounding it we are given this translation in Corinthians:

Instead of  'nor homosexuals' we get, 'nor the  traders in homosexual slaves.' In Timothy we get 'those who trade in homosexual slavery. '

Seems reasonable to me. The passages in Corinthians and in Timothy are a condemnation of slave traders and prostitution. It is not a direct condemnation of homosexuals. If condemnation of homosexuals, homosexuality or homosexual acts was intended, they would have used the more common and more exact word for it 'homophilia' which was used widely in the Greek linguistic sphere. But they did not. We know what 'arsenokoites' amongst  means because we have examples of the word being used in other surviving contemporary works including the Sybilline Oracale. In each case, 'arsenokoites' meant trader in homosexual slaves. Indeed the word is usually found amongst discussions in trade or economics

And so it continues, for 700 years, through the establishment of the early Church in Rome when Greek was surpassed by Latin. Of all survining texts of either Timothy or Corinthains  which all bar one, translate 'arsenokoites' to mean 'homosexual slave trading,' which is consistent with the condemnation of prostitution to be found throughout the Bible. Somewhere in the 1300 years since, the meaning has been warped and twisted, by intent? Who is to say. But what can be said is that subsequent translations are NOT compatable with the Scripture as it was originally written.

[Person Man]

So, it is more about protecting the innocent than punishing the impure in that affect.

[afleitch]

So, it is more about protecting the innocent than punishing the impure in that affect.

Yes. There are other passages too - each time homosexual slave trading and the end result; homosexual temple prostitution are condemned. It stands with condemnation of prostitution across the NT.

[12th Doctor]

I am pretty fascinated by the many interpretations of 1Corinthians 6:9.


KJV-
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


BBE-
Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,


ESV-
 Or do you not know that the unrighteous [2] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [

If the KJV differs significantly from another version you have in hand, always go against the KJV.  Terrible translation done by people who had no access to the original texts (because they were specifically denied them by the Vatican) and basically just made it up as they went along.

[12th Doctor]

Not to mention that so much semantic drift has occurred since the KJV was first laid down that several passages can be easily misunderstood by someone who doesn't have extensive experience in Early Modern English.

[JSojourner]

So, it is more about protecting the innocent than punishing the impure in that affect.

Yes. There are other passages too - each time homosexual slave trading and the end result; homosexual temple prostitution are condemned. It stands with condemnation of prostitution across the NT.

Well summed, brother.