Is the office of the Papacy an abomination?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 08:37:07 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: World politics is up Schmitt creek)
  Is the office of the Papacy an abomination?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2
Poll
Question: Is the office of the Papacy an abomination?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 25

Author Topic: Is the office of the Papacy an abomination?  (Read 12469 times)
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,693
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: February 20, 2008, 06:39:50 PM »

Is the office of the Papacy an abomination?
Logged
Хahar 🤔
Xahar
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,731
Bangladesh


Political Matrix
E: -6.77, S: 0.61

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 06:41:25 PM »

I'm not sure I would call it an abomination, but infallibility is pretty stupid.
Logged
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,693
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 07:10:18 PM »

Seriously BRTD, do you try to be an arse hole or does it just come naturally?

I'm just stating what I believe. And I believe any office like the Papacy perverts my religion.
Logged
Kaine for Senate '18
benconstine
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 30,329
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 07:14:13 PM »

No, of course not.  The Pope is not infallibe, but it is a respectable office, and this thread demeans not just the Pope but also every Catholic who believes that the Pope is a lifeline to God.
Logged
John Dibble
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,733
Japan


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2008, 07:19:28 PM »

Seriously BRTD, do you try to be an arse hole or does it just come naturally?

I'm just stating what I believe. And I believe any office like the Papacy perverts my religion.

I'm pretty sure the office of the Pope and the church that is lead by the Pope have been around a lot longer than your version of Christianity - if we follow the logical chain of events your religion is simply a perversion of Catholicism.
Logged
JSojourner
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,510
United States


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -6.94

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2008, 07:26:14 PM »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,609
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 07:31:44 PM »

Abomination? Hello Dr. Paisley!
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 07:34:55 PM »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)

You do know what is meant by infallibility, right?
Logged
JSojourner
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,510
United States


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -6.94

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 07:42:47 PM »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)

You do know what is meant by infallibility, right?

Yep.  The joke is that Archie said "inflammable". "Incest" was another malaprop.  For incense.  You gotta be an All in the Family fan to appreciate it, I guess.  LOL

 Archie was famous for his malaprops.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2008, 07:46:25 PM »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)

You do know what is meant by infallibility, right?

Yep.  The joke is that Archie said "inflammable". "Incest" was another malaprop.  For incense.  You gotta be an All in the Family fan to appreciate it, I guess.  LOL

 Archie was famous for his malaprops.

Yeah, I got the joke... I was asking a serious question.
Logged
JSojourner
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,510
United States


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -6.94

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2008, 08:16:51 PM »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)

You do know what is meant by infallibility, right?

Yep.  The joke is that Archie said "inflammable". "Incest" was another malaprop.  For incense.  You gotta be an All in the Family fan to appreciate it, I guess.  LOL

 Archie was famous for his malaprops.

Yeah, I got the joke... I was asking a serious question.


Yep.  The doctrine of Papal Infallability is, as I understand it, the notion that when the Holy Father speaks Ex Cathedra he is speaking the word/words of God and therefore cannot be in error.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2008, 08:21:27 PM »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)

You do know what is meant by infallibility, right?

Yep.  The joke is that Archie said "inflammable". "Incest" was another malaprop.  For incense.  You gotta be an All in the Family fan to appreciate it, I guess.  LOL

 Archie was famous for his malaprops.

Yeah, I got the joke... I was asking a serious question.


Yep.  The doctrine of Papal Infallability is, as I understand it, the notion that when the Holy Father speaks Ex Cathedra he is speaking the word/words of God and therefore cannot be in error.

Correct, but he must be speaking "from the chair", which means he must claim to be speaking for the Church.  No one believes that everything that comes out of the Pope's mouth is absolutely true, and everything he does is right (he can't sin), as is the common misconception... as I like to put it, "the Pope isn't perfect, just infallible."

Papal infallibility has only been officially exercised twice, though there is evidence that it was practice, at least in the western Church, going all the way back to the before the 5th century.  And we know that it was, at least, a common belief by the papacy of Gregory VII.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2008, 08:47:38 PM »

BTW... if the Pope every speaks heresy ex cathadra then he ceases to be the Pope.

People often take jabs at this and say it is circular reasoning, but it isn't, because it is not the Pope who is judged to be infallible, but rather the Church through the Holy Spirit.  Even if that Pope is not removed right away, all his actions from their on out are illicit, and thus the next Pope can simply move his actions to one side and not worry about it.
Logged
JSojourner
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,510
United States


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -6.94

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2008, 08:54:10 PM »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)

You do know what is meant by infallibility, right?

Yep.  The joke is that Archie said "inflammable". "Incest" was another malaprop.  For incense.  You gotta be an All in the Family fan to appreciate it, I guess.  LOL

 Archie was famous for his malaprops.

Yeah, I got the joke... I was asking a serious question.


Yep.  The doctrine of Papal Infallability is, as I understand it, the notion that when the Holy Father speaks Ex Cathedra he is speaking the word/words of God and therefore cannot be in error.

Correct, but he must be speaking "from the chair", which means he must claim to be speaking for the Church.  No one believes that everything that comes out of the Pope's mouth is absolutely true, and everything he does is right (he can't sin), as is the common misconception... as I like to put it, "the Pope isn't perfect, just infallible."

Papal infallibility has only been officially exercised twice, though there is evidence that it was practice, at least in the western Church, going all the way back to the before the 5th century.  And we know that it was, at least, a common belief by the papacy of Gregory VII.

Thanks, Soulty.  This was my understanding.  My concern is that Papal Encyclicals or Church Doctrines are sometimes passed off as infallible.  For example, our Bishop (who really is a wonderful man and a personal friend) says he is considering denying Holy Communion to Catholics who are pro choice.  He hasn't ruled yet, but he believes the statements of JP II and HH, Pope Benedict allow for no disagreement with church teaching on abortion.  Since neither Pope spoke Ex Cathedra on this issue, I would presume Roman Catholics had room to disagree and still receive the sacrament.

It's really not an issue that affects me, an Episcopalian.  But I do care about my Catholic friends and relatives.

Speaking of our Catholic Bishop -- even though he is very conservative, I really admire him.  He was one of the whistleblowers who was unceremoniously shipped out of the Boston Archdiocese when he complained about predatory clergy.  It took a lot of courage but he stood tall and showed that there are more Godly Catholic clergy out there than bad guys.  His name is John D'Arcy and after almost 20 years in Indiana, he still sounds like he's from Boston.  I love the guy.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2008, 09:37:52 PM »
« Edited: February 20, 2008, 09:40:30 PM by Supersoulty »

As Archie Bunker said...

"I don't trust da Pope.  He thinks he's inflammable.  And where does he get off sprinkling incest all over everybody?"

(Seriously -- the problem is not the Papacy.  It's the doctrine of Papal infallability.)

You do know what is meant by infallibility, right?

Yep.  The joke is that Archie said "inflammable". "Incest" was another malaprop.  For incense.  You gotta be an All in the Family fan to appreciate it, I guess.  LOL

 Archie was famous for his malaprops.

Yeah, I got the joke... I was asking a serious question.


Yep.  The doctrine of Papal Infallability is, as I understand it, the notion that when the Holy Father speaks Ex Cathedra he is speaking the word/words of God and therefore cannot be in error.

Correct, but he must be speaking "from the chair", which means he must claim to be speaking for the Church.  No one believes that everything that comes out of the Pope's mouth is absolutely true, and everything he does is right (he can't sin), as is the common misconception... as I like to put it, "the Pope isn't perfect, just infallible."

Papal infallibility has only been officially exercised twice, though there is evidence that it was practice, at least in the western Church, going all the way back to the before the 5th century.  And we know that it was, at least, a common belief by the papacy of Gregory VII.

Thanks, Soulty.  This was my understanding.  My concern is that Papal Encyclicals or Church Doctrines are sometimes passed off as infallible.  For example, our Bishop (who really is a wonderful man and a personal friend) says he is considering denying Holy Communion to Catholics who are pro choice.  He hasn't ruled yet, but he believes the statements of JP II and HH, Pope Benedict allow for no disagreement with church teaching on abortion.  Since neither Pope spoke Ex Cathedra on this issue, I would presume Roman Catholics had room to disagree and still receive the sacrament.

It's really not an issue that affects me, an Episcopalian.  But I do care about my Catholic friends and relatives.

Speaking of our Catholic Bishop -- even though he is very conservative, I really admire him.  He was one of the whistleblowers who was unceremoniously shipped out of the Boston Archdiocese when he complained about predatory clergy.  It took a lot of courage but he stood tall and showed that there are more Godly Catholic clergy out there than bad guys.  His name is John D'Arcy and after almost 20 years in Indiana, he still sounds like he's from Boston.  I love the guy.

Indeed... encyclicals are based of of interpretations of scripture, and while we as Catholics like to think that the words contained within are inspired, that doesn't equate infallibility, even in the Church's view, nor do the acts of Council's.  People tend to be surprised how little dogma the Catholic Church actually has, dogma being those things that we believe without a doubt... either because they are 100% clearly defined by scripture, or are traditions that can be backed by scripture that have lasted since basically the beginning of the Church.  Most of what the Church dogmatically defines in contained in the Nicaean Creed. 

It is also worth noting that even if the Pope were to teach heresy and thus cease being the Pope, that doesn't mean there is no Pope.  There is always a true Pope, somewhere in the world, even if he is not recognized officially at the moment as being such (or ever recognized at all).  So if John Paul IV gets elected and the next year he dogmatically teaches heresy... Cardinal Menendez of Mexico City is the one chosen by the Spirit as the new Pope, even if he never actually sits at the Vatican.
Logged
7,052,770
Harry
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 35,217
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2008, 12:41:00 AM »

I sometimes have people in real life trash papal infallibility without knowing what they're talking about.  It's annoying.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2008, 02:32:34 AM »

...It is also worth noting that even if the Pope were to teach heresy and thus cease being the Pope, that doesn't mean there is no Pope...

So if a Pope did teach heresy, would he be removed by the Cardinals or would he stay in the office?

In the past when this has happened they were rarely deposed outright.  Usually the bishops just stopped listening and they waited for him to die then voted for someone who would reverse any damage he did.  I'm honestly not sure how this would work in the modern day, though I can imagine that the Cardinals might actually be more willing to depose such a person, because the the way modern media works and the speed at which things happen.

But, yes, the Cardinals could simply depose him by excommunication.

Even if they didn't, though, and for some odd reason the heresy went  unchallenged by a majority of the Cardinals, that person would still cease to be the Pope in the eyes of the Holy Spirit.
Logged
Franzl
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,254
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2008, 02:18:03 PM »

No, of course not.  The Pope is not infallibe, but it is a respectable office, and this thread demeans not just the Pope but also every Catholic who believes that the Pope is a lifeline to God.
Logged
Jake
dubya2004
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,621
Cuba


Political Matrix
E: -0.90, S: -0.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2008, 02:46:20 PM »

We've discussed that in the past. It's mainly a problem among the teens who like to see their post counts get inflated.

And I bet if I sat down and started listing "abominations" in this world, I could keep going for a few days before hitting on the office of the Papacy.
Logged
memphis
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,959


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2008, 10:56:44 PM »

No, but some positions of the Church (past and present) certainly are.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2008, 09:26:34 AM »

We've discussed that in the past. It's mainly a problem among the teens who like to see their post counts get inflated.

And I bet if I sat down and started listing "abominations" in this world, I could keep going for a few days before hitting on the office of the Papacy.

Tend to agree. Though if we were talking about the Papacy in the 1400s-1500s things would be different...
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 10:46:11 AM »


Scary... my exact thoughts.
Logged
Franzl
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,254
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2008, 03:52:07 PM »

No, of course not.  The Pope is not infallibe, but it is a respectable office, and this thread demeans not just the Pope but also every Catholic who believes that the Pope is a lifeline to God.

Don't mean to take this out on you Franzl, but is anyone else sick of seeing the exact same thing posted just in quotes?  It just seems so useless to me.

I'll try to avoid it in the future.
Logged
12th Doctor
supersoulty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2008, 04:27:15 PM »

No, but some positions of the Church (past and present) certainly are.

Example... and keep in mind that I want positions of The Church.
Logged
JSojourner
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,510
United States


Political Matrix
E: -8.65, S: -6.94

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2008, 04:35:20 PM »

No, but some positions of the Church (past and present) certainly are.

Example... and keep in mind that I want positions of The Church.

You know, Soulty...the one charge continually lobbed at my RCC brothers and sisters was that they believed in the doctrine of salvation by works or, "earning your way to heaven on your own merit".  That may have been true at one time.  But Protestants, particularly Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, have been very slow to recognize the 1998 Corcordat of Agreement signed by representatives of HH John Paul II and leaders of the Lutheran World Federation.  In short, the RCC and the Lutherans agreed that only the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus could atone for human sin.  They hastened to add that good works were an essential and outward sign of conversion, but insisted that the "miracle of new birth" came about through Christ's work, and not human effort.

While I respected John Paul II before the Concordat, my admiration and affection for him grew by leaps and bounds thereafter.  The document effectively ended 500 years of mutual condemnation between Lutherans and Catholics.  (I am not sure the Missouri and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans got the memo! LOL)

Hoping Canterbury and Rome can also make progress,

Jim
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.063 seconds with 14 queries.