Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Very negative. Awful awful dogma.

[John Dibble]

The notion that "if you don't worship my god(s) in my way then you'll be damned forever" is not unique to the Catholic Church, BRTD. Other religions aside, many Christian sects believe that other Christian sects are going to hell because they just aren't getting it right, and many more such sects believe non-Christians don't even stand a chance of going to heaven. Why single out the Catholics?

[dead0man]

Why care what a religion you don't belong to thinks about those outside it's religion?  As long as they aint f--king little kids or punishing people that won't convert to their religion*, how could it be anybody else's buisness?  They can think any stupid thing about me that they want and I about them.


*or other acts that actually, ya know, harm somebody/thing.

[Keystone Phil]

As long as they aint f--king little kids

Yeah, that wasn't coded or anything. 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The notion that "if you don't worship my god(s) in my way then you'll be damned forever" is not unique to the Catholic Church, BRTD. Other religions aside, many Christian sects believe that other Christian sects are going to hell because they just aren't getting it right, and many more such sects believe non-Christians don't even stand a chance of going to heaven. Why single out the Catholics?

1-The Catholic church is the largest of these sects.
2-The Catholic church is the only one that likes to pretend that isn't the case.

[dead0man]

As long as they aint f--king little kids

Yeah, that wasn't coded or anything. 

Hey, I was attempting to defend your religion.  If the Church doesn't want to be known for doing bad things to little kids maybe they shouldn't be protecting the Priests that do it. (or at least have a history of it)

[Keystone Phil]

As long as they aint f--king little kids

Yeah, that wasn't coded or anything. 

Hey, I was attempting to defend your religion.  If the Church doesn't want to be known for doing bad things to little kids maybe they shouldn't be protecting the Priests that do it. (or at least have a history of it)

Except "the Church" doesn't do bad things to little kids. Yes, certain bishops in certain dioceses had things covered up but that wasn't sanctioned by the Church leadership and wasn't a common occurance.

[dead0man]

As long as they aint f--king little kids

Yeah, that wasn't coded or anything. 

Hey, I was attempting to defend your religion.  If the Church doesn't want to be known for doing bad things to little kids maybe they shouldn't be protecting the Priests that do it. (or at least have a history of it)

Except "the Church" doesn't do bad things to little kids. Yes, certain bishops in certain dioceses had things covered up but that wasn't sanctioned by the Church leadership and wasn't a common occurance.

I agree completely. 

Have those bishops been punished by the church?

[Keystone Phil]

As long as they aint f--king little kids

Yeah, that wasn't coded or anything. 

Hey, I was attempting to defend your religion.  If the Church doesn't want to be known for doing bad things to little kids maybe they shouldn't be protecting the Priests that do it. (or at least have a history of it)

Except "the Church" doesn't do bad things to little kids. Yes, certain bishops in certain dioceses had things covered up but that wasn't sanctioned by the Church leadership and wasn't a common occurance.

I agree completely. 

Have those bishops been punished by the church?

I know of at least one off the top of my head who was forced to resign - Cardinal Law of Boston

[J. J.]

The notion that "if you don't worship my god(s) in my way then you'll be damned forever" is not unique to the Catholic Church, BRTD. Other religions aside, many Christian sects believe that other Christian sects are going to hell because they just aren't getting it right, and many more such sects believe non-Christians don't even stand a chance of going to heaven. Why single out the Catholics?

1-The Catholic church is the largest of these sects.
2-The Catholic church is the only one that likes to pretend that isn't the case.

Actually, you missed the closing statement.

"for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Negative, but so what?  Nearly every religion believes this.

[John Dibble]

The notion that "if you don't worship my god(s) in my way then you'll be damned forever" is not unique to the Catholic Church, BRTD. Other religions aside, many Christian sects believe that other Christian sects are going to hell because they just aren't getting it right, and many more such sects believe non-Christians don't even stand a chance of going to heaven. Why single out the Catholics?

1-The Catholic church is the largest of these sects.

What does that matter? The size of the church doesn't change the doctrine. That's a completely irrelevant fact in this debate.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well maybe they actually don't believe it the way you like to say they believe it then. What J.J. points out makes a pretty strong case against your argument.

[12th Doctor]

The notion that "if you don't worship my god(s) in my way then you'll be damned forever" is not unique to the Catholic Church, BRTD. Other religions aside, many Christian sects believe that other Christian sects are going to hell because they just aren't getting it right, and many more such sects believe non-Christians don't even stand a chance of going to heaven. Why single out the Catholics?

1-The Catholic church is the largest of these sects.

What does that matter? The size of the church doesn't change the doctrine. That's a completely irrelevant fact in this debate.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well maybe they actually don't believe it the way you like to say they believe it then. What J.J. points out makes a pretty strong case against your argument.

BRTD is a bigoted fool who is not only ignorant, but aggressively so... he doesn't want to know the truth, because then he would be faced with his intellectual dishonesty.  Problem is that, on this particular subject, there are hundreds of millions of more like him out there.

[12th Doctor]

The notion that "if you don't worship my god(s) in my way then you'll be damned forever" is not unique to the Catholic Church, BRTD. Other religions aside, many Christian sects believe that other Christian sects are going to hell because they just aren't getting it right, and many more such sects believe non-Christians don't even stand a chance of going to heaven. Why single out the Catholics?

1-The Catholic church is the largest of these sects.
2-The Catholic church is the only one that likes to pretend that isn't the case.

Actually, you missed the closing statement.

"for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Thank you for stepping up and pointing out the obvious.  I'm just getting tired of it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Negative, but so what?  Nearly every religion believes this.

Catholicism isn't a religion and most Protestant denominations do not say there is no salvation outside of that specific Protestant denomination.

The notion that "if you don't worship my god(s) in my way then you'll be damned forever" is not unique to the Catholic Church, BRTD. Other religions aside, many Christian sects believe that other Christian sects are going to hell because they just aren't getting it right, and many more such sects believe non-Christians don't even stand a chance of going to heaven. Why single out the Catholics?

1-The Catholic church is the largest of these sects.
2-The Catholic church is the only one that likes to pretend that isn't the case.

Actually, you missed the closing statement.

"for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Ah, but it'd be hard to have a "mysterious relationship with the Church" if you were an anti-Catholic Christian strongly opposed to Catholic practices, right? And what about ex-Catholics? They still have a relationship with the chuch they denonced?

What does that matter? The size of the church doesn't change the doctrine. That's a completely irrelevant fact in this debate.

It makes them far more relevant. There's no reason I should focus as much on some random snake handling sect in Appalachia as I do on the largest religious denomination in the world.

Well maybe they actually don't believe it the way you like to say they believe it then. What J.J. points out makes a pretty strong case against your argument.

See what I said above. What if you're a Protestant disgusted by Catholicism? Or an ex-Catholic?

[John Dibble]

What does that matter? The size of the church doesn't change the doctrine. That's a completely irrelevant fact in this debate.

It makes them far more relevant. There's no reason I should focus as much on some random snake handling sect in Appalachia as I do on the largest religious denomination in the world.

I'm more concerned about a cult with only a few thousand members who oppresses their members and intimidates their neighbors than a large religious sect of millions that today doesn't actively attempt to harm people. It's not like the modern Roman Catholic Church is leading witch hunts and inquisitions like the medieval version did.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

See what I said above. What if you're a Protestant disgusted by Catholicism? Or an ex-Catholic?
[/quote]

Not one thing in the paragraph J.J. quoted said you have to like the R.C.C. to be saved. It's pretty easy to make the link - if Christ has given you his grace, then you've got a relationship to his church, which is in this context the Roman Catholic Church.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What does that matter? The size of the church doesn't change the doctrine. That's a completely irrelevant fact in this debate.

It makes them far more relevant. There's no reason I should focus as much on some random snake handling sect in Appalachia as I do on the largest religious denomination in the world.

I'm more concerned about a cult with only a few thousand members who oppresses their members and intimidates their neighbors than a large religious sect of millions that today doesn't actively attempt to harm people. It's not like the modern Roman Catholic Church is leading witch hunts and inquisitions like the medieval version did.

The Catholic Church is largely responsible for the AIDS epidemic in parts of Africa and much poverty and problems in South America (though thankfully lately there they've told them to go "f**k off" and started using and distributing contraceptives.)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

See what I said above. What if you're a Protestant disgusted by Catholicism? Or an ex-Catholic?

Not one thing in the paragraph J.J. quoted said you have to like the R.C.C. to be saved. It's pretty easy to make the link - if Christ has given you his grace, then you've got a relationship to his church, which is in this context the Roman Catholic Church.
[/quote]

So even if you're an ex-Catholic? That would seem rather odd.

[Keystone Phil]

The Catholic Church is largely responsible for the AIDS epidemic in parts of Africa and much poverty and problems in South America (though thankfully lately there they've told them to go "f**k off" and started using and distributing contraceptives.)

They're responsible for it because the Church doesn't approve of condoms? Uh, sorry, but that doesn't mean they're responsible for it.

[John Dibble]

The Catholic Church is largely responsible for the AIDS epidemic in parts of Africa and much poverty and problems in South America (though thankfully lately there they've told them to go "f**k off" and started using and distributing contraceptives.)

That's a stretch. Sure, you could argue their policies aren't helping the situation, but they aren't responsible for the AIDS epidemic. Even if they never said anything to anybody in Africa there would still be a rather large problem.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

See what I said above. What if you're a Protestant disgusted by Catholicism? Or an ex-Catholic?
[/quote]

Not one thing in the paragraph J.J. quoted said you have to like the R.C.C. to be saved. It's pretty easy to make the link - if Christ has given you his grace, then you've got a relationship to his church, which is in this context the Roman Catholic Church.
[/quote]

So even if you're an ex-Catholic? That would seem rather odd.
[/quote]

What part of "mysterious" do you not get?

[12th Doctor]

Negative, but so what?  Nearly every religion believes this.

Catholicism isn't a religion and most Protestant denominations do not say there is no salvation outside of that specific Protestant denomination.

Show me where this Catholic Church says this.  I am begging you.  If you could I would renounce Catholicism this very moment and spend the rest of my days on the forum exposing the superiority of your intellect.

I know I risk nothing by this, because it quite simply can't be demonstrated.

As for your other points... I am sure any Protestant denomination would say you were going to Hell if you found their practices revolting.  Why should any Church have anything good to say about those who hate it?

You are probably also not aware that when Catholics speak of the Church, they are not only talking about the actual Church structure, but also the entire communion of God.  The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that claims to be universal, so any claims about salvation by the Church have to be thusly interpreted.  Of course an unknowing person such as yourself wouldn't recognize the distinction.

[12th Doctor]

*bump*

BRTD already looks like an idiot, but I would still love for him to answer my question.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What I just linked to the doctrine that says that.

I haven't heard of any mainstream Protestant denoms saying the Pope is going to hell despite his comments about Protestants.

[12th Doctor]

What I just linked to the doctrine that says that.

I haven't heard of any mainstream Protestant denoms saying the Pope is going to hell despite his comments about Protestants.

Dumbass... the Pope never said Protestants are going to Hell.  Your mommy is making it up.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He made that "deficient" or whatever comment a few months ago.

[12th Doctor]

He made that "deficient" or whatever comment a few months ago.

And for the 90 millionth and last f***ing time, the position of the Catholic Church is that they are not complete Christians, but they are Christians, and since God's grace is dispensed by God and not by the Church directly, they are not going to Hell simply for not being Catholic.

And as JJ pointed out, and you clearly ignored, not that link you posted doesn't tell the whole story, because it leaves out the second part of the doctrine, which is:

"for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."

And as I pointed out, the Church makes a clear distinction between being a full fledged member of the Catholic Church organization and being a part of The Church... which is the universal body of Christ.  Again, while the Catholic Church claims to be the universal church (as is implicit in the word "Catholic", it recognizes that Christ's Church extends beyond the organization of the Catholic Church.

It's not "secret code" or "convoluted" its just that you don't understand it.  Oh well, your ignorance isn't the fault of the Pope.