Dems (and others on the left), do you prefer to "battle" Libertarians or Fundies

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Funnily enough none of those three ideologies have any credibility(? Perhaps the wrong word - followers maybe?) outside the United States.

Libertarianism is just a silly form of US nationalism, however it is silly enough to be attacked while maintaing some sort of credibility which the fundies don't have.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

That's an awfully narrow definition of Libertarian.  I use it more in the "classical liberal" kind of way as, I think, most Libertarians do.  No sane Libertarian would put a yellow ribbon magnet on his/her car.

"Classical Liberal"? Interesting, what's your opinion on Locke's Tabula Rasa or on the Mazzinian notion of the Nation State?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Funnily enough none of those three ideologies have any credibility(? Perhaps the wrong word - followers maybe?) outside the United States.

Libertarianism is just a silly form of US nationalism, however it is silly enough to be attacked while maintaing some sort of credibility which the fundies don't have.

Funny, given that we oppose nationalism. Also, Gully, how can you claim to be an anarchist when you defend the state at almost every opportunity?

Most libertarians tend to invoke the "founding fathers" and the "Constitution" as an arguement and believe that the US has been corrupted in recent times by "Big government" and often by association "Socialists". How is that not nationalism? Especially when considering that rugged individualism and hatred of central authority have always been "American" traits and that libertarianism has very little following outside the US.

Also I never claimed I was an Anarchist. Rather I am sympathetic towards certain branches of Anarchism. However, I don't think I have ever defended the state, at least not for the purposes of defending the state.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

It's amazing how many people confused a sense of responsibility with being a spoiled rich poor hater

Having a sense of responsibility doesn't equate to favoring economic policies that were disproven by the 1930s. Yes, avoiding state over-regulation is important but so too is avoiding going too laissez faire/pro-corporate.

If one thing the last eight years have shown is that the super rich don't believe much in their own responibility.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Dubious Claim. Do you know the level of Tax evasion corporations commit everywhere (or are they fighting for freedom)? Btw, Emsworth name me three corporations you consider to be good.

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Not a good comparsion given the level of co-operation between Chevron, Halliburton & Co and the war effort. Though I guess that goes under cronyism.

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What if this "collective action" required as its idea giving power back to the state (on some level).

Mikado is right anyway, libertarians are promoting the idea, like conservatives, that there society is one which is both natural and orderly (and thus neo-ideological, as apparently only the government can be ideological), however in practice libertarianism would just give us jungle capitalism and neo-social darwinist approach to life. Soul destroying idea in practice. (I've often gotten across from Emsworth that he believes in the traditional liberal idea of the state, as a neutral arbiter of society's various interest groups, which he sees as bad as those interests are always likely to be against his idea of society. I wonder what is opinion on "natural monopolies" are and would should be done about public Transport. Because in America taking a private position basically means promoting the automobile and suburbization. Neutrality makes its own decisions.)

I also agree with the Mikado that libertarianism is possibly more dangerous than fundamentalism (at the present) because the former's humanist heritage and thus cultural respectibility and also how attaches itself to young "intellectuals". A position funnily enough taken up by forms of Trotskyism in Europe.

However that might change once the fundies start getting more sophisicated arguements.