A Clinton delegate from Wisconsin says she will vote for McCain
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  A Clinton delegate from Wisconsin says she will vote for McCain
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Author Topic: A Clinton delegate from Wisconsin says she will vote for McCain  (Read 3198 times)
Math
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« on: June 14, 2008, 10:24:09 PM »

That's quite embarrassing for Obama...

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=762052&format=print

Delegate’s reversal stuns party

Wisconsin Democrat now publicly supports McCain

By CRAIG GILBERT

Posted: June 14, 2008

Washington - As an avid supporter of Hillary Rodham Clinton in the Democratic primaries, Debra Bartoshevich is not alone in her frustration over Clinton's defeat.

She’s not alone in refusing to support Barack Obama.

And she’s not entirely alone in saying she’ll vote this fall for Republican John McCain instead.

But what makes her unusual is that she holds these views as an elected delegate to the Democratic National Convention in Denver this summer.

“I’m sure people are going to be upset with me,” said Bartoshevich, a 41-year-old emergency room nurse from Waterford in Racine County, and convention delegate pledged to Clinton.

Joe Wineke, chairman of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin, reacted with disbelief when first told Friday afternoon that one of his state party delegates is now a McCain supporter.

“Not a delegate? To the national convention?” said Wineke, who was getting ready for the start of the Wisconsin state party convention Friday in Stevens Point.

“We have a Clinton national (convention) delegate who says she’s voting for John McCain?” Wineke repeated, for clarification. “I’ve never heard of such a thing.”

Wineke said “almost everybody I know who was for Hillary” is solidly behind Obama now. As for Bartoshevich, he said, “my suspicion is she doesn’t know what she’s getting into” because “the delegates to this convention will be very upset.”

Asked if publicly supporting the other party’s presidential nominee could affect a delegate’s convention status, Wineke said, “I never thought I’d ever get a question like this.”

After some preliminary checking, Wineke said he assumed Bartoshevich would remain a delegate.

But Friday night, after a story about Bartoshevich appeared on the Journal Sentinel’s Web site, he had apparently reconsidered. At the state Democratic Party convention, party members, including Clinton supporters, unanimously passed a resolution asking the national party not to seat Bartoshevich at the Denver convention. Wineke spoke in favor of the resolution.

Another pledged Clinton delegate, Paula Dorsey of Milwaukee, offered the resolution.

Dorsey said trying to expel her fellow Democrat from the party’s convention “hurts my soul and it hurts my heart,” but it is the party’s presumptive nominee, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), whom convention delegates must support.
An unusual decision

The McCain campaign said that, nationally, it was not aware at this point of any other delegates to the Democratic convention (it may know of an alternate, it said) who have come out for the Republican candidate.

In an interview, Bartoshevich expressed lingering unhappiness over the Democratic nominating process, said Clinton was treated unfairly by the party and said she has deep reservations about Obama’s lack of experience and his judgment.

“I’m kind of disenfranchised,” she said.

She said she planned to vote for Clinton at the convention, but in an Obama-McCain matchup in November, “I will not be voting for Obama. I will cast my vote for John McCain.

“I just feel you need to have somebody who has experience with foreign matters.”

She said a series of controversial Obama associations, including but not limited to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Chicago developer Tony Rezko, reflected poorly on his judgment. And she echoed the complaints of many of Clinton’s most ardent supporters that Clinton was treated unfairly in the nominating process and by the party.

“No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her — that’s by Susan B. Anthony,” said Bartoshevich, referring to the suffragist.

Bartoshevich called herself a “devoted Democrat” who had never voted for a Republican for president.

“I’m on a lot of the (pro-Clinton) blogs, and so many people, male and female, feel the same way as I do,” said Bartoshevich, who was listed as a Racine County co-chair for the Clinton campaign and who traveled outside Wisconsin to volunteer for Clinton. “The Democrats jumped on this wagon of Barack Obama, and nobody really knows him.”

Hoping to tap into discontent among Clinton supporters, the McCain campaign is reaching out to them in a variety of ways, including a telephone “town hall” meeting today targeted to non-Republican voters.
McCain aide alerted press

Encouraged by her sister, who has served in Iraq, Bartoshevich signed up as a supporter with “Citizens for McCain,” an arm of the campaign targeting Democrats and independents. She said she got a call from the McCain campaign, which then provided her name to a reporter.

Polls suggest that Democrats are largely rallying around Obama after a divisive nominating fight, a phenomenon that has occurred in past intra-party fights, scholars say. But it remains to be seen whether Obama is hurt in the fall by any softness among Clinton’s core constituencies, especially white women and older and lower-income whites.

“History tells us that the vast majority of pledged (Clinton) delegates will in fact be quite enthusiastic about Obama by the time they get to Denver,” said Elaine Kamarck, a Harvard lecturer, a member of the Democratic National Committee and an expert on the nominating process.

Kamarck, who supported Clinton in the primaries, said it was too soon to tell whether discontent among Clinton supporters becomes a significant factor or “whether it’s just magnified because we have the Internet.”

Clinton has not formally released her pledged delegates, and it would not be unusual, given the modern history of the party, for most of them to cast their votes for Clinton at the convention. But that would depend on whether Clinton allows her name to be put forward for the nomination. Clinton hasn’t made that clear, but she has urged her delegates to help Obama defeat McCain.

Professor Byron Shafer, a University of Wisconsin-Madison scholar who is an expert on conventions, said it’s the fact that Bartoshevich is a convention delegate, subject to the partisan tendencies and pressures common to party activists, that makes her public support for McCain so unusual.

“The competitive partisan dynamic is usually strong enough that even the people not willing to line up at the convention on record for the nominee are still unlikely to be willing to line up publicly for the other party’s nominee,” Shafer said. “It’s a pretty far-out move.”

Steven Walters of the Journal Sentinel staff contributed to this report from Stevens Point.
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Aizen
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2008, 10:25:37 PM »

That's quite embarrassing for Obama...


No, not really.
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Verily
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2008, 10:25:46 PM »

Except that her fellow Clinton supporters then booted her out as a delegate--so she's not "a Clinton delegate from Wisconsin" any more. She's just "a crazy lady from Wisconsin."
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Alcon
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2008, 10:28:07 PM »

"Quite embarrassing," seriously?

There are a boatload of pledged Clinton delegates.  This is one of them, and not even a local party official of any degree.  I don't see how this would be "quite embarrassing" even if she were still a delegate.  Maybe if she were a superdelegate, and even then...
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J. J.
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2008, 10:29:05 PM »

I think she will be a McCain voter in the Fall.  The question is, how may other Clinton voters out there just like her?  A few?  A lot?
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Alcon
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2008, 10:29:42 PM »

Oh, and I should also point out that there are congressional members who haven't endorsed Obama, and more that haven't endorsed McCain.  Granted none of them have endorsed the respective candidate that I know of (bar Lieberman), but still.
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J. J.
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2008, 10:32:56 PM »

"Quite embarrassing," seriously?

There are a boatload of pledged Clinton delegates.  This is one of them, and not even a local party official of any degree.  I don't see how this would be "quite embarrassing" even if she were still a delegate.  Maybe if she were a superdelegate, and even then...

Lieberman was stripped of his status for supporting McCain.  I know that most GOP organization have an "oppose or about to oppose" clause.  Basically, someone can be removed from a party post if they "oppose or about to oppose" the GOP nominee.

I would assume the Democrats have a similar rule.
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Alcon
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2008, 10:34:25 PM »

Lieberman was stripped of his status for supporting McCain.  I know that most GOP organization have an "oppose or about to oppose" clause.  Basically, someone can be removed from a party post if they "oppose or about to oppose" the GOP nominee.

I would assume the Democrats have a similar rule.

Did Lieberman even have superdelegate status originally?  He only caucuses with the Democrats, so I doubt it.  But I wasn't speaking directly of superdelegates, but rather of significant elected figures.
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Math
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2008, 10:37:28 PM »

"Quite embarrassing," seriously?

I just feel incredibly better when I heard this kind of news, even if it looks like a very weird therapy. But as a former Clinton supporter, I'm probably a strange person.
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Alcon
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2008, 10:40:48 PM »

I just feel incredibly better when I heard this kind of news, even if it looks like a very weird therapy. But as a former Clinton supporter, I'm probably a strange person.

Incredibly better about what exactly, if you don't mind me asking?
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Meeker
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2008, 10:41:36 PM »

Just for clarification, Lieberman was never a superdelegate.
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WalterMitty
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2008, 10:47:03 PM »

this makes me sick.

that goddamned attention whore is just giving dicks like olbermann even more ammunition to continue his hillary bashing.
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2008, 10:55:23 PM »

"Quite embarrassing," seriously?

There are a boatload of pledged Clinton delegates.  This is one of them, and not even a local party official of any degree.  I don't see how this would be "quite embarrassing" even if she were still a delegate.  Maybe if she were a superdelegate, and even then...

Lieberman was stripped of his status for supporting McCain.  I know that most GOP organization have an "oppose or about to oppose" clause.  Basically, someone can be removed from a party post if they "oppose or about to oppose" the GOP nominee.

I would assume the Democrats have a similar rule.

I believe the Democrats used it to kick out Lyndon LaRouche's delegates one year... 2000?
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J. J.
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2008, 11:11:50 PM »

Lieberman was stripped of his status for supporting McCain.  I know that most GOP organization have an "oppose or about to oppose" clause.  Basically, someone can be removed from a party post if they "oppose or about to oppose" the GOP nominee.

I would assume the Democrats have a similar rule.

Did Lieberman even have superdelegate status originally?  He only caucuses with the Democrats, so I doubt it.  But I wasn't speaking directly of superdelegates, but rather of significant elected figures.

I would thing so.  The wording says "Democratic members" but not "elected as Democrats."

I think someone seated as a Republican but who changed parties to become a Democrat would be a super delegate.  I've found a few blog entries:  http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=010B61B17540DEB77EEFD92F389B2E2E?diaryId=8174

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Alcon
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2008, 11:14:57 PM »

Lieberman was stripped of his status for supporting McCain.  I know that most GOP organization have an "oppose or about to oppose" clause.  Basically, someone can be removed from a party post if they "oppose or about to oppose" the GOP nominee.

I would assume the Democrats have a similar rule.

Did Lieberman even have superdelegate status originally?  He only caucuses with the Democrats, so I doubt it.  But I wasn't speaking directly of superdelegates, but rather of significant elected figures.

I would thing so.  The wording says "Democratic members" but not "elected as Democrats."

I think someone seated as a Republican but who changed parties to become a Democrat would be a super delegate.  I've found a few blog entries:  http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=010B61B17540DEB77EEFD92F389B2E2E?diaryId=8174



I think Meeker is right.  He was not a Democratic member of the U.S. Senate when the race began, really.  Even if he were, endorsing McCain obviously stripped him of his status.
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Meeker
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2008, 11:16:05 PM »

Lieberman is not a Democratic member of Congress and thus is not a superdelegate. Neither is Bernie Sanders.
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2008, 11:17:09 PM »

Lieberman was never a superdelegate. As for LaRouche's delegates, they were banned on the grounds that LaRouche is not a registered Democrat (and in fact, not even a registered voter), and thus not a valid candidate.
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J. J.
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2008, 11:21:59 PM »

Lieberman is not a Democratic member of Congress and thus is not a superdelegate. Neither is Bernie Sanders.

The quote in the blog was from the local newspaper.  The rule says "Democratic member," so, unless Lieberman changed his party, he qualifies.  So would someone elected as a Republican who switches.

And, there isn't a requirement, from what I can see, that the nominee be a registered Democrat (and that happens with some frequency in PA in both parties).
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Alcon
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2008, 11:26:02 PM »

He was, apparently - maybe as the VP candidate in 2000?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/07/lieberman-stripped-of-sup_n_85494.html

Why was Bernie Sanders not?
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Torie
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2008, 11:29:05 PM »

Bouncing a delegate already selected because of their views sucks. Period.
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Meeker
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2008, 11:29:23 PM »

No. Lieberman is not a superdelegate. The Call to the Convention states:

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Lieberman is not a Democratic United States Senator. The DNC confirmed this when asked:

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Furthermore, the Connecticut Democratic Party's delegate selection plan does not list Lieberman as a superdelegate.

Joe Lieberman is not and never has been a superdelegate this cycle.
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J. J.
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2008, 11:35:53 PM »

No. Lieberman is not a superdelegate. The Call to the Convention states:

Quote
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Lieberman is not a Democratic United States Senator. The DNC confirmed this when asked:

Quote
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Furthermore, the Connecticut Democratic Party's delegate selection plan does not list Lieberman as a superdelegate.

Joe Lieberman is not and never has been a superdelegate this cycle.

What's your source?
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Meeker
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2008, 11:38:43 PM »

No. Lieberman is not a superdelegate. The Call to the Convention states:

Quote
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Lieberman is not a Democratic United States Senator. The DNC confirmed this when asked:

Quote
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Furthermore, the Connecticut Democratic Party's delegate selection plan does not list Lieberman as a superdelegate.

Joe Lieberman is not and never has been a superdelegate this cycle.

What's your source?

Democratic Convention Watch, and the Call to the Convention itself, and the Connecticut Democratic Party, and the DNC itself.

It's been widely reported the other way, but that was inaccurate.

http://www.demconwatchblog.com/2008/02/everybody-wrong-on-lieberman.html
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J. J.
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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2008, 11:44:45 PM »

Here is the link to the AP story, republished in the Yale newspaper:

http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/23467

It quotes some of those same party sources.

In looking at the rule, it says "Democratic member" of both Houses, so unless he changed his party affiliation, he qualifies.  Someone that would change parties to the Democrats would become a superdelegate and someone who was elected as a Democrat and leave the party after that would loose his superdelegate status.
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2008, 11:46:49 PM »

He wasn't elected as a Democrat and left the party as soon as he filed his candidacy under the Connecticut for Lieberman Party.
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