England Turning Resentful of Scottish Desire for Independence

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There's that classic annoying Al response! Vague as ever. Keep it up.

If I'd responded in more detail you'd only have gotten more irritated.

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Here we go again. I don't play up anything in that regard.

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What exactly is the "educational snob attitude" [qm]. I'm a lot of things Phil, not all of them good, but one thing I'm not is the sort of prick who things that having a degree makes them superior to the overwhelming majority of humanity that doesn't.

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No, no, no... I don't think it's impossible for you to shut up. I think it's impossible for anyone else to force you to shut up. There's a difference

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Annoy is the wrong word. Wind up a little... maybe.

[Keystone Phil]

If I'd responded in more detail you'd only have gotten more irritated.

Ok, Al. You're known for giving vague answers when you don't know/feel like answering in full. Don't blame it on someone else.

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You certainly act superior. It's a side affect of the constant ass kissing you receive around here.

You have talked down to me on more than one issue especially regarding Europe/European politics because you're the know it all and I'm the ignorant, loud mouth American who happens to disagree with you most of the time.

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Yeah, no one can force me to shut up. Now it's said in a positive way. Earlier, you used it to be insulting; to make me seem like an arrogant, loud mouthed asshole.

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[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yeah, no one can force me to shut up. Now it's said in a positive way. Earlier, you used it to be insulting; to make me seem like an arrogant, loud mouthed asshole.

These remarks:

"I'm not sufficiently egotistical to think that I could shut you up."

"The fact that God himself would struggle to shut you up"

Can be read in several different ways. That's the point. The basic observation is true (as you yourself have just ended up proving here), which is also the point.

I'm not really sure what your problem with me is (fwiw I don't have a problem with you). You seem to be railing against someone who I don't recognise as myself.

[Keystone Phil]

Can be read in several different ways. That's the point. The basic observation is true (as you yourself have just ended up proving here), which is also the point.

Al, you just gave three answers to whether or not you were calling me a loud mouth.

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Goldmine material

I respect people a whole lot more if they stop doing one thing and saying something else.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Al, you just gave three answers to whether or not you were calling me a loud mouth.

No I didn't. It's quite clear that I was calling you a loudmouth. The ambiguous part is the extent to which it was meant as an insult.

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How so?

[Јas]

Jas, I have another question to ask you. Assuming that NI became part of the Republic, how would the parties in Ireland be affected? Would they need to be reconstituted if this issue went away, to the extent their charters are influenced by the NI question?

Depends a great deal on how unification were to come about.

Northern Parties
The SDLP would almost certainly disappear just about overnight, splitting between the 3 large southern parties - Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour - each of which is already eyeing up the possible collapse of the SDLP at the moment anyway. The SDLP are themselves considering their options at the moment, and Fianna Fáil are pretty much committing themselves to competing in local and Assembly elections (though not Westminster elections) in the North within the next few years.

For the remaining Northern parties it's more difficult to say. Sinn Féin would probably continue as an avowed socialist party, occupying ground to Labour's left.

What the Unionists would do is very hard to say, and the circumstances of unification would be very important. I would think that the DUP would continue to contest elections in the north-east. Assuming they were able to maintain they're level of electoral success, they could be a very significant player in an all-Ireland parliament.

I would guess that the UUP would fracture and collapse, with many going to the DUP and possibly a few skimming off to Fine Gael (the most Unionist-sympathetic of the Southern parties), while others fighting on as Independents or joining/starting some new party construct.

I'm at a loss to judge what direction the Alliance Party would take.

The Greens are a quasi-all-Ireland party anyway and obviously their concerns are not hugely related to nationalist or unionist politics.

Southern Parties
Certainly there's no reason why Labour, the Greens or the Progressive Democrats would need to change a great deal - nationalism and all that isn't really a part of their political brand.

As I've said, Fine Gael would be the most likely to pick up from ex-UUP voters (middle class protestants, big farmers, cynical/untrustworthy of Sinn Féin) and indeed ex-SDLP voters sharing similar characteristics.
Fianna Fáil would be playing for the ex-SDLP vote primarily and would be unlikely to make much headway with unionists of any hue.

Which party would the Unionists feel most comfortable in, and would it vary by class, social views, religiousity, etc?

The answer has to be Fine Gael, who have always been sympathetic to Unionists. The factors you raise are important though. UUP voters (middle-class, moderate-conservative on social issues) would be most comfortable in FG. DUP voters much less so (more likely to me working-class, conservative-reactionary on social issues) I can't see as particularly happy in any of the existing Southern parties.

Which party would Torie join?  Thanks.

I suspect you'd be a Fine Gael voter under normal conditions in the South (I can't quite rule out the Progressive Democrats either though); and a UUP, or possibly Alliance voter, in the North.

[MasterJedi]

Al-esque remark: lol nationalism. Except for course if it applies to him and Wales. That's the way I'm seeing this.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Er... I'm certainly not a Welsh Nationalist. Fifty years ago the label "Soft Nationalist" might have fitted, but that was an odd term describing something (ie; a desire for a certain amount of home rule, concerns for the preservation of endangered parts of Welsh culture, etc) that can hardly be described as nationalism. Patriotism, yes, but that's not the same thing as nationalism.

[Keystone Phil]

Goldmine material

How so?

You don't have a problem with me? As I said before, you've made plenty of condescending remarks directed my way in the past and you've just admitted that your comment about me being a loudmouth is, to an extent, an insult.

[Torie]

Thanks for your post Jas, and all the hard work you put into it. I appreciate it. How do the FG and FF vary on the NI question at present, such that it causes you to say that FG is more Unionist friendly?

[Хahar 🤔]

Thanks for your post Jas, and all the hard work you put into it. I appreciate it. How do the FG and FF vary on the NI question at present, such that it causes you to say that FG is more Unionist friendly?

IIRC (I'm not an expert), it has to do with the culture of each party.

[??????????]

give South Tirol back.

Please do so ASAP.

[GMantis]

give South Tirol back.

Please do so ASAP.

The whole region or just the northern part?

[Јas]

How do the FG and FF vary on the NI question at present, such that it causes you to say that FG is more Unionist friendly?

There has now for some time (the last 20 years, give or take) been a consensus in the South as to the approach regarding the North, that being that only consensus politics could achieve peace in the North - something that was eventually accepted by all participants in the peace process. The acceptance by the DUP that Fianna Fáil are bona fide in this approach may in the medium term mean that, in the practice of government and diplomacy at least, it is quite completely irrelevant which party leads the Government in Dublin.

As to why FG would be more sympathetic, I suppose it stems from the history and formation of both FG and FF - rooted in our Civil War. FF have always been more avowedly nationalistic and there has long been elements within the party (which I'd now suggest are of negligible number and significance) which would have been accepting or at least unwilling to condemn violent nationalism/republicanism in the North. For most countries, the political compass of the economic scale and the social scale can provide a useful, if very rough, idea of the party's concerns. For Irish politics, a third scale - how nationalist they are - is important in defining the parties. Indeed without it, FG and FF being two parties just wouldn't make sense.

The following links are to posts which consider the differences between FF and FG, posted by either myself or our erstwhile fellow Irish colleague, Gully Foyle. The linked posts and the 1 or 2 after them (from the Ireland General Discussion thread and the Ireland Election 2007 thread) in each case should help offer some local insight (or deranged readings) into the subject.
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=46004.msg1116054#msg1116054
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=61532.msg1346728#msg1346728

[Torie]

Thanks again Jas. It does not appear at this juncture that FF and FG really vary to any significant degree. One would think that over time that they would reconstitute into center left and center right parties, ala the UK.

[Јas]

Thanks again Jas. It does not appear at this juncture that FF and FG really vary to any significant degree. One would think that over time that they would reconstitute into center left and center right parties, ala the UK.

Maybe so, but I'd be doubtful and there's been little sign of it so far.

To my mind, FG are already a centre-right party, hamstrung by the fact that they can never win enough seats to enter government without the centre-left Labour party and so possibly coming off to many as more centrist than they really are. Certainly from his pronouncements to date, the current leader is a sort of standard law & order conservative type leader (if a bit gormless).

FF are almost anti-ideological, maybe somewhat populist. Their stance depends a great deal on their leader's direction moreso than any real core beliefs. They too are strongly affected by their coalition partners. Socially centrist to right leaning, economically centrist (though with members along the spectrum from centre-left to centre-right).

Neither party has any sort of litmus test or issue of credo, at least not anymore. Too a great extent party identification for many members (and indeed many of their elected representatives) is clearly simply a matter of family history rather than any actual political beliefs. Both are rather big-tent operations which can easily accomodate any reasonably moderate type characters.

(Another factor to consider may be that our system of election (PR-STV) seems to favour moderates (IMO) moreso than other electoral methods.)

To a significant extent it is Ireland's smaller parties as necessary coalition partners who so often find themsleves steering the ship of government. The Progressive Democrats for example (set up in the 1980s from defectors from both FF and FG) have arguably been the most influential party in government over the past 2 decades - responsible for setting in place a pro-business , low direct tax economy which has become accepted by pretty much all parties with elected representation as the correct framework to have in place - this despite the fact that they have only occasionally managed to get double digit representation in the Irish parliament and are currently on the verge of extinction.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Thanks again Jas. It does not appear at this juncture that FF and FG really vary to any significant degree. One would think that over time that they would reconstitute into center left and center right parties, ala the UK.

Maybe so, but I'd be doubtful and there's been little sign of it so far.

To my mind, FG are already a centre-right party, hamstrung by the fact that they can never win enough seats to enter government without the centre-left Labour party and so possibly coming off to many as more centrist than they really are. Certainly from his pronouncements to date, the current leader is a sort of standard law & order conservative type leader (if a bit gormless).

FF are almost anti-ideological, maybe somewhat populist. Their stance depends a great deal on their leader's direction moreso than any real core beliefs. They too are strongly affected by their coalition partners. Socially centrist to right leaning, economically centrist (though with members along the spectrum from centre-left to centre-right).

Neither party has any sort of litmus test or issue of credo, at least not anymore. Too a great extent party identification for many members (and indeed many of their elected representatives) is clearly simply a matter of family history rather than any actual political beliefs. Both are rather big-tent operations which can easily accomodate any reasonably moderate type characters.

(Another factor to consider may be that our system of election (PR-STV) seems to favour moderates (IMO) moreso than other electoral methods.)

To a significant extent it is Ireland's smaller parties as necessary coalition partners who so often find themsleves steering the ship of government. The Progressive Democrats for example (set up in the 1980s from defectors from both FF and FG) have arguably been the most influential party in government over the past 2 decades - responsible for setting in place a pro-business , low direct tax economy which has become accepted by pretty much all parties with elected representation as the correct framework to have in place - this despite the fact that they have only occasionally managed to get double digit representation in the Irish parliament and are currently on the verge of extinction.

I disagree - you can't (anymore) use any sort of scale to place either FG or FF. Its just that FF is the "power party" who like all such parties doesn't actually have an ideology (but likes to pretend it does) other than those related to patronage and the social\cultural ideas of the time (Protectionist Jacobinism in the 1930s, Keynesian Conservatism in the 60s/70s, Free Market Friedmanism plus the parish pump now).

FG is just a party of conservative and liberal-conservative lawyers and businessmen. In many ways its opinions are actually closer to that of the "establishment" than that of many members of FF. Though perhaps I am wrong on this, I was surprised to note that the majority of identified FG voters voted no in the referendum.

[Хahar 🤔]

Gully, your description of FF is quite reminescent of United Russia. Can a limited parallel be drawn?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Gully, your description of FF is quite reminescent of United Russia. Can a limited parallel be drawn?

Don't really know enough to comment but I usually think FF is more like the LDP of Japan, or the Pre-90s PRI of Mexico or even the Christian Democrats of Italy in the Cold War era (though obviously less eh.. fascist)

[Јas]

I disagree - you can't (anymore) use any sort of scale to place either FG or FF. Its just that FF is the "power party" who like all such parties doesn't actually have an ideology (but likes to pretend it does) other than those related to patronage and the social\cultural ideas of the time (Protectionist Jacobinism in the 1930s, Keynesian Conservatism in the 60s/70s, Free Market Friedmanism plus the parish pump now).

FG is just a party of conservative and liberal-conservative lawyers and businessmen. In many ways its opinions are actually closer to that of the "establishment" than that of many members of FF. Though perhaps I am wrong on this, I was surprised to note that the majority of identified FG voters voted no in the referendum.

And people call me cynical...

I have but 2 points,
1. yes, FF's primary objective is to maintain power. However this alone doesn't necessarily  distinguish themselves sufficiently from ...well, politicians everywhere. it's just that they're better at retaining power, democratically, than most.
2. I don't grant the premise that there's really anything Friedmanite about FF (or that there has ever been), indeed I'd put the move to a more pro-free-market stance down almost solely to the PDs. FF (and indeed now every establishment party) simply went along with the ride - for reasons mostly related to the first point - the desire to stay in power.  Further, i;d say that the economic policies adopted over time reflect exactly my point about the importance of the FF leader in directing policy/ideology rather than any inherent policy/ideological beliefs of the party.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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I aim to please.

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I never said it did. Perhaps I should have made it clear than being in FF is a more a "career" than anything else. That is of course true for all the political parties but FF due to its nature is always going to have pure careerists in it (and will thus be more corrupt).

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I don't disagree but...

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That was my initial point. FF (and FG) just ride the currents of Irish society. FF's position on Divorce perhaps gives the best showing on this.

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Nah. FF is the party of the Irish State; the divergence of the opinions of its leaders (since De Valera left the scene anyway) has not really changed that much except to exacebate the populist or conservative elements and tendencies within the party depending on who is leader. With Cowen now number 1 there is a much less conservative ethos to FF than was the status quo under Ahern.

[??????????]

give South Tirol back.

Please do so ASAP.

The whole region or just the northern part?

All of it.

[Jens]

give South Tirol back.

Please do so ASAP.

The whole region or just the northern part?

All of it.

I'm not sure at country of 8 million will cope very well with getting at 600.000 person minority closely related to a 55 million neighbour. A new irridenta, perhaps.

[Keystone Phil]

give South Tirol back.

Please do so ASAP.

The whole region or just the northern part?

All of it.

I'm not sure at country of 8 million will cope very well with getting at 600.000 person minority closely related to a 55 million neighbour. A new irridenta, perhaps.

That's 58 million, thank you very much. 

[minionofmidas]

give South Tirol back.

Please do so ASAP.

The whole region or just the northern part?

All of it.

I'm not sure at country of 8 million will cope very well with getting at 600.000 person minority closely related to a 55 million neighbour. A new irridenta, perhaps.

That's 58 million, thank you very much. 

56.5 million after you dump South Tirol and the Trentino.