Church of England to split

[12th Doctor]

Hey I took communion by invitation in an Episcopal Church (at a funeral), and the priest said nothing about the Baptized Christian condition precedent thing, so this un-Baptized Pagan went right up. The folks sitting near me asked why, and I replied, because I can! And there you have it.   Yet another reason why I am headed to the pit.

The canons say "All baptised Christians are welcome to receive the bread and wine, or just the bread as is their need or custom.  Those who do not wish to receive the sacrament or who cannot, may cross their arms and receive a blessing from the celebrant".

However, not all parishes police or observe that.  And, I suspect even in the Roman Catholic Church (Soulty could confirm or correct this), there is no way of knowing the spiritual status of every person who goes forward.  I am sure a lot of communion is given to those technically ineligible.  I do know that in most Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod congregations, they will ask for proof that you are a member if they don't know you.  And they will deny the sacrament, even to baptised Christians.

That said Torie, I believe ultimately, the matter is between you and God.  And if I were in charge of sending people to the pit, you would not be among them.  I think I would probably send you to Cleveland instead....  <grin>

The priest generally has no way of knowing for certain who is eligible and who isn't.  Keep in mind there are many things that can make you ineligible, including being in an ongoing state of mortal sin.  That's up to the person to decide whether they want to take it on their soul, usually.  Sometimes, at an event such as a wedding, where the priest knows there are bound to be large numbers of non-Catholics, they will announce that only Catholics can take communion, and give a brief explanation of why this is, but even that is rare.

[JSojourner]

I can see it now.

Phil, what are you having for dinner?

Oh, I think I'm just going to snack on some unleveled wafers.

Eh, it's definitely more of an after dinner light snack.

Never mind.  I just blew you all out of the water in terms of sacrilegious thinking.  I just came back from mass and went to Starbucks, while I was leaving, I thought "Now it's time to wash Christ down with some good coffee."

Haha....I lol'd.

In a related note, I'm always continually surprised by how little emphasis other denominations place on Communion. Maybe that's just because the Catholic mass is built around receiving Communion.

For the longest time, I didn't even know if Protestants received communion, that's how little emphasis is placed on it.

Anyway, I hate to say this but Christ leaves a bad after taste in my mouth. Yeah, I just said that. By the time I get out of mass, I have this stale after taste. I usually wash it down as soon as I get home.

A few comments in response to all the fun and interesting posts on communion.  And then, a story you will love -- especially if you regard the sacrament as a beautiful and moving experience.

First, let it never be said that Jesus doesn't have a sense of humor...even about himself.  No, I don't have a specific verse of Scripture to defend that belief.  But seriously -- could a guy who created (however he did it) a chimp NOT have a sense of humor?  Could a guy who usually chose the most unlikely turkeys to be his followers NOT have a sense of irony?  I think God loves to laugh.  Most often, at me.  Like when my prayers turn into me telling Him how He should do things.  I then hear Him say, "Thank you for your wise counsel.  What would I do without you?"  And we both have a good laugh.  I digress.

Second, almost all Protestants DO take communion.  All Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians and some AME Churches regard the sacrament as either the literal body and blood of Christ...or the literal power and presence of Christ.  Many Protestant denominations (Methodists, Wesleyans, Pentecostals) leave it to the individual communicant to decide for himself.  Some -- particularly the hardcore Reformed churches -- reject any notion of communion as anything but a symbol.  

I attended Baptist and Christian & Missionary Alliance Churches in my youth and they had communion on the first Sunday of every month, like clockwork.  In college, I attended some non-denominational churches and some Charismatic/Pentecostal Churches.  They almost never had communion.  In Fort Wayne, we ended up at the Church of God - General Conference (Findlay, Ohio) -- not to be confused with the Pentecostal Church of God or the Church of God, Anderson, Indiana.  They had communion once per quarter.  And that drove me to the Episcopal Church.  I came to believe at least weekly was best for me.  Though I would take it daily if I could.  At the end of the day, one must receive it if one is a Christian.  How, when and where is between you and God.

Now, my story.  My mother and father never took communion. They were afraid to because they believed themselves unworthy.  After I became a Christian, that grieved me, because I felt they didn't understand that grace is a free gift -- it's not about OUR worthiness.  It's about Christ's.

Then Dad has a stroke.  As a result, he becomes uncharacteristically childish.  Many of his adult inhibitions were gone or tamped down.  He would, for example, go right up to a child in a store and say, "Hi baby!  You're beautiful.  I love babies."  Before the stroke, Dad knew that people might be afraid of that and feel threatened.  After the stroke, all he knew how to do was live in the moment and love.  Before the stroke, he would bristle and recoil when I tried to kiss him.  Because sons don't kiss their fathers.  (I rejected that and now that he's gone, I am so glad I did!)  But after the stroke, he would hug me and kiss me and say all the things he never could before.  So...you get the idea.

Now it's time for communion.  The plate is passed (Protestant church) and instead of guiltily letting it pass by because he's unworthy, Dad grabs a handful of the tiny, little pieces of bread and downs them like candy.  My mother is utterly mortified.  People nearby gasp.  And Dad just munches.

So what?  Did Dad think, like a younger child might, "Oh, snack time!"  Perhaps.  Or did he think, possibly like an older child with some reasoning ability but not much, "Hey!  Free grace!!! Cool!!"

I don't know for sure, but I like the mental picture of the latter.  I told my priest that story and he just cried.  Because that's how Jesus would have us approach him.  Not greedily, but needily.  Like Peter said, "Wash not only my feet, but my head and hands and all of me..."

[Bono]

I think you, like many people, are confused about the Reformed position on the Lord's Supper. Many people believe we take the Zwinglian view that the bread and wine are only symbolic, but actually we take a middle ground view that while Christ is present in the Supper, He is not present in the bread and wine as themselves but present spiritually. To quote the Westminster Confession:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Хahar 🤔]

This thread got weird.

[Associate Justice PiT]

This thread got weird.

     It's not the thread's fault; it was written this way.

[JSojourner]

I think you, like many people, are confused about the Reformed position on the Lord's Supper. Many people believe we take the Zwinglian view that the bread and wine are only symbolic, but actually we take a middle ground view that while Christ is present in the Supper, He is not present in the bread and wine as themselves but present spiritually. To quote the Westminster Confession:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Bono, I knew that -- but I should have clarified what I meant by Reformed.  There are all kinds of churches that claim to come from the Reformed tradition, but you're right -- the Presbyterians in particular (of all stripes) do believe in a spiritual presence.  Some theologians in the United Church of Christ do as well.  I cannot speak to the Reformed Church in America, the Christian Reformed Church or the various Brethren and Peace Churches.

Most Baptists, Grace Brethren and Evangelical Free Churches are pretty solidly "symbolic only" folks.  I also don't know where the Covenant Church stands, but I suspect it would be closer to what you have outlined.

Thanks so much for the great catch.

[Bono]

I think you, like many people, are confused about the Reformed position on the Lord's Supper. Many people believe we take the Zwinglian view that the bread and wine are only symbolic, but actually we take a middle ground view that while Christ is present in the Supper, He is not present in the bread and wine as themselves but present spiritually. To quote the Westminster Confession:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Bono, I knew that -- but I should have clarified what I meant by Reformed.  There are all kinds of churches that claim to come from the Reformed tradition, but you're right -- the Presbyterians in particular (of all stripes) do believe in a spiritual presence.  Some theologians in the United Church of Christ do as well.  I cannot speak to the Reformed Church in America, the Christian Reformed Church or the various Brethren and Peace Churches.

Most Baptists, Grace Brethren and Evangelical Free Churches are pretty solidly "symbolic only" folks.  I also don't know where the Covenant Church stands, but I suspect it would be closer to what you have outlined.

Thanks so much for the great catch.

I see what you mean now, thanks for making it clearer. I'm not familiar with many of the denominations you mentioned, but I can enlighten you about where the continental tradition Reformed churches, aka the Reformed Church in America, the Christian Reformed Church and similar stand. I'll quote the Belgic Confession, which is to them what the Westminster Confession is to us Presbyterians:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

As you can see, they share the Presbyterian 'spiritual presence' view. I do know Reformed Baptists take the symbolic only view though.

[JSojourner]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!  This is great!!!!

[Bono]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!  This is great!!!!

I can't figure out if that's sarcasm or not. *scratches head*

[JSojourner]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!  This is great!!!!

I can't figure out if that's sarcasm or not. *scratches head*

No, I mean it Bono.  If there's one segment of Christendom I am not familiar enough with, it's the Christian Reformed and Reformed Church in America.  I'm pretty close to the PCUSA because I provide pulpit supply for some PCUSA churches, and I know the PCA because I've read a lot of their theologians and authors.  But the CRC and RCA are not as well known.  Your information helps!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yet another reason why Methodism>all.  We let everyone take communion if they want, even heathens and nonbelievers!

Great waffers and Merlot... make sure there is enough for everyone.

We don't use wafers, because we're not Catholic, nor do we have alcohol, because officially speaking the Methodist Church is temperate

My point was that Methodists allow communion to everyone because their beliefs about what happens at communion aren't the same as those of Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans or Anglicans.

Uh, Lutherans also allow everyone communion (and DO NOT have the same view on it as Catholics.)

[12th Doctor]

Yet another reason why Methodism>all.  We let everyone take communion if they want, even heathens and nonbelievers!

Great waffers and Merlot... make sure there is enough for everyone.

We don't use wafers, because we're not Catholic, nor do we have alcohol, because officially speaking the Methodist Church is temperate

My point was that Methodists allow communion to everyone because their beliefs about what happens at communion aren't the same as those of Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans or Anglicans.

Uh, Lutherans also allow everyone communion (and DO NOT have the same view on it as Catholics.)

Most Lutherans believe in a literal presence.  Anyway, thanks for joining in on the conversation after it was already over.  I wasn't even the one who charged that Lutherans didn't allow everyone.  How would I know?  I don't go to Lutheran churches.

I see you are already busy at work making me regret that I stood up for your reinstatement.

[12th Doctor]

Either BRTD has never heard of consubstantiation, or he wants there to be a difference.  So basically, he either proves himself to incapable of speaking with any authority on matters of faith... once again.  Or the intolerant Catholic has, once again, stood up for unity in the face of the understanding Protestant's need to see Catholicism as something "other".  Eitherway, again, my point was about real presence, which obviously both Catholic and Lutheran hold to.

[JSojourner]

Yet another reason why Methodism>all.  We let everyone take communion if they want, even heathens and nonbelievers!

Great waffers and Merlot... make sure there is enough for everyone.

We don't use wafers, because we're not Catholic, nor do we have alcohol, because officially speaking the Methodist Church is temperate

My point was that Methodists allow communion to everyone because their beliefs about what happens at communion aren't the same as those of Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans or Anglicans.

Uh, Lutherans also allow everyone communion (and DO NOT have the same view on it as Catholics.)

Actually BRTD, that is categorically untrue.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (the more liberal and, I think, "sane" Lutheran denomination) allows all baptised Christians to receive communion.  They believe that the communion elements contain the spiritual presence and power of Jesus Christ when the words of institution (the epiclesis) are pronounced.

But the ELCA, while the largest, is by no means the only Lutheran body in the world.

The Missouri-Synod Lutherans practice closed communion.  It is open only to other Lutherans.  And in some Missoury Synod districts, it is open only to other Missouri Synod Lutherans.  The also take the view of the elements that the ELCA hold to.

The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans practice a very closed communion, open only to other members of the Wisconsin Synod LC.  No one else may receive.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

*shrug*, I was barely paying attention during the last couple weeks for obvious reasons and other ones and just found this. Felt a correction was needed.

Actually though I realized I misinterpreted what was said, Lutherans simply say communion is open to all baptized Christians, not EVERYONE. But I still stand by saying the Lutheran view on communion is not exactly the same as the Catholic one. Consubstantiation is not the same as transubstantiation. After all if it was, Lutherans would be permitted to take communion at Catholic churches. Not something I care about frankly, and besides, I don't even really believe in the Lutheran view on communion anyway. Just like about 2/3 of Minnesota Lutherans probably.

And JSojourner, yeah I know. I actually am an ELCA Lutheran. I know about the other branches, but do not remotely care about them. OK, change my above sentence to 2/3 of Minnesota ELCA Lutherans. And I would never take communion at either one of those other Lutheran churches you mentioned. Though it's a moot point because I'd never set foot in one of the churches of those abominations in the first place.

[JSojourner]

And JSojourner, yeah I know. I actually am an ELCA Lutheran. I know about the other branches, but do not remotely care about them.

I gotcha.  We're heavily MoSyn here in Fort Wayne because we have a Seminary.  And they do run the gamut from moderate to ultra-fundamentalist.  They had some liberals awhile ago but they were run out of town on a rail.

My daughter attends a MoSyn elementary school and on the whole, they've been wonderful to her.  Even though she is not one of the "chosen".  But she would not be allowed to received communion, even though she is a baptised Christian. 

Glad you are ELCA.  That's probably what I would be if the Episcopal Church didn't exist. In fact, though it doesn't happen often, we do share clergy at times. 

[12th Doctor]

*shrug*, I was barely paying attention during the last couple weeks for obvious reasons and other ones and just found this. Felt a correction was needed.

Actually though I realized I misinterpreted what was said, Lutherans simply say communion is open to all baptized Christians, not EVERYONE. But I still stand by saying the Lutheran view on communion is not exactly the same as the Catholic one. Consubstantiation is not the same as transubstantiation. After all if it was, Lutherans would be permitted to take communion at Catholic churches. Not something I care about frankly, and besides, I don't even really believe in the Lutheran view on communion anyway. Just like about 2/3 of Minnesota Lutherans probably.

No, they aren't the same, but again, not what my point was about, which would have been obvious if you had even read the statements I was responding to, which were located, for your convenience in the little quote pyramid above what I said.

And what don't you care about?  The theology of the Eucharist, or the fact that Lutherans can't take communion at Catholic masses?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And what don't you care about?  The theology of the Eucharist, or the fact that Lutherans can't take communion at Catholic masses?

The latter. It's moot to me since I'd never be going to Catholic masses anyway.

[12th Doctor]

And what don't you care about?  The theology of the Eucharist, or the fact that Lutherans can't take communion at Catholic masses?

The latter. It's moot to me since I'd never be going to Catholic masses anyway.

Well, good to know that you are trying to be understanding.  I guess its more comfortable to just stay set in your ignorance.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And what don't you care about?  The theology of the Eucharist, or the fact that Lutherans can't take communion at Catholic masses?

The latter. It's moot to me since I'd never be going to Catholic masses anyway.

Well, good to know that you are trying to be understanding.  I guess its more comfortable to just stay set in your ignorance.

A few posts above:

Most Lutherans believe in a literal presence.  Anyway, thanks for joining in on the conversation after it was already over.  I wasn't even the one who charged that Lutherans didn't allow everyone.  How would I know? I don't go to Lutheran churches.

I see you are already busy at work making me regret that I stood up for your reinstatement.

That's basically the exact same thing as I said. I'm not going to Catholic churches ever and you're not going to Lutheran ones. So what's the difference?

[J. J.]

The Episcopal view is basically that the Body of Christ is present "heavenly and spiritual manner."  It is very close to consubstantiation, but there is the implication that the "essence," as described by St. Thomas, of the Eucharist still includes the essence of the bread.

I might be thinking of another term where I use "essence."

I generally decline to take a purely "symbolic" communion, but I don't received in a Roman Catholic Church only because the Church says so.

Also , the practice of Communion every Sunday does vary from parish to parish in the Episcopal church, some doing it perhaps monthly.  Communion may only be given 4-5 times a year in a Presbyterian one (the two denominations in which I have held membership).

[12th Doctor]

And what don't you care about?  The theology of the Eucharist, or the fact that Lutherans can't take communion at Catholic masses?

The latter. It's moot to me since I'd never be going to Catholic masses anyway.

Well, good to know that you are trying to be understanding.  I guess its more comfortable to just stay set in your ignorance.

A few posts above:

Most Lutherans believe in a literal presence.  Anyway, thanks for joining in on the conversation after it was already over.  I wasn't even the one who charged that Lutherans didn't allow everyone.  How would I know? I don't go to Lutheran churches.

I see you are already busy at work making me regret that I stood up for your reinstatement.

That's basically the exact same thing as I said. I'm not going to Catholic churches ever and you're not going to Lutheran ones. So what's the difference?

Good job taking what I said out of context.  I didn't say I would never go to one, and someday I likely will.  I have been to services of almost ever other major Protestant denomination.  I simply have never been to a Lutheran one.  I've even been to a (predominantly) Jewish service.