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  I may find out if Pawlenty is the running mate today...
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Author Topic: I may find out if Pawlenty is the running mate today...  (Read 22252 times)
The love that set me free
BRTD
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« Reply #100 on: August 25, 2008, 04:17:40 pm »

I will definitely give credit where it's due. Phil owned the argument in this thread.

I know you would say that anyway, but how exactly?  I offered about 15 good reasons to put Ridge on the ticket (ing shut up about the high school comment, for the 50th time I only said it to illustrate a point), and all Phil has said is "Pawlenty doesn't piss off the base."  Well, so what?  Anyone who doesn't vote for us because Ridge is nominally pro-choice can be made up with the people who will vote for us, because we dont look like the Bob Jones Party, anymore.  And when Pawlenty was in Minnesoata, that was a small deal.  But huge-uber-Catholic organization will skip into action if you put Pawlenty on the ticket... Christ, I am bashing Catholics, BRTD, you should be eating this sh**t up.

You think I'm going to defend Pawlenty? Ha. I'm just saying your arguments against him are quite shallow and your arguments for Ridge are based on large leaps of logic. I don't see why Catholics in Minnesota wouldn't care, or why a significant number would care if Phil of all people doesn't. Maybe if he was pro-choice I could see it being an issue, but are conservative Catholics seriously going to vote for a pro-choice Protestant and pro-choice Catholic over a pro-life Protestant and pro-life ex-Catholic Protestant? Like I said, if Phil of all people doesn't care...

If that were to happen though, it'd actually make me like Pawlenty somewhat, and that really just shouldn't ever happen.
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J. J.
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« Reply #101 on: August 25, 2008, 04:20:47 pm »


Pawlenty is a worse choice than Biden by a long shot, unless you expect MN to go Republican.

Lest we forget:

Img
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #102 on: August 25, 2008, 04:21:47 pm »

I bet you that there is no polling evidence that Ridge helps in PA at all. I haven't checked, but I make the bet anyway.

I never claimed that there was.  But because I live here, and I live in Erie, and I have actually worked on the ground here politically, I know that Ridge is immensely popular.

Ever single comment thus far has been aimed at either taking what I said out of context or just blatantly putting words in my mouth.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #103 on: August 25, 2008, 04:22:06 pm »

But huge-uber-Catholic organization will skip into action if you put Pawlenty on the ticket...

Yeah, ok.  Roll Eyes

And they'll be enthusiastic about a Pro Choice Catholic? Remember when Kerry won the Catholic vote in...oh...nevermind.



Pawlenty is a worse choice than Biden by a long shot, unless you expect MN to go Republican.

Lest we forget:

Img


Roll Eyes

No one is arguing that he's flipping MN, J.J.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #104 on: August 25, 2008, 04:30:55 pm »

But huge-uber-Catholic organization will skip into action if you put Pawlenty on the ticket...

Yeah, ok.  Roll Eyes

And they'll be enthusiastic about a Pro Choice Catholic? Remember when Kerry won the Catholic vote in...oh...nevermind.



Pawlenty is a worse choice than Biden by a long shot, unless you expect MN to go Republican.

Lest we forget:

Img


Roll Eyes

No one is arguing that he's flipping MN, J.J.

For the 80th time, Ridge could just barely be described as pro-choice.  He is opposed to abortion personally, and legally he actually restricted it as governor, and could make a very credible case for being anti-Roe... which is where the real battle is.

And please note, what I said was onyl in response to the notion that Ridge offends Catholics while Pawlenty does not.  Either one of them could, but at least Ridge buys us alot more.  I'm getting more than a little tired of people twisting my arguments around to make them sound like I am some damn extremist.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2008, 04:32:41 pm »

And the little ladies you do Rosary and Alter, and vote 100% of the time will care, once groups like Catholic Answers put that information out there.  Will it be a tidal wave, no, but it could hurt us with a group we need to get.
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The love that set me free
BRTD
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« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2008, 04:33:35 pm »

And the little ladies you do Rosary and Alter, and vote 100% of the time will care, once groups like Catholic Answers put that information out there.  Will it be a tidal wave, no, but it could hurt us with a group we need to get.

So they're going to vote for the pro-choice Democratic ticket instead?
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2008, 04:34:19 pm »


For the 80th time, Ridge could just barely be described as pro-choice.  He is opposed to abortion personally, and legally he actually restricted it as governor, and could make a very credible case for being anti-Roe... which is where the real battle is.

I understand that his view is complex but when he's asked, "Mr. Ridge, do you consider yourself Pro Life or Pro Choice?" how will he answer? If he says "Pro Choice," then it's a problem. If he gives a complex answer, we're even more screwed.

And the little ladies you do Rosary and Alter, and vote 100% of the time will care, once groups like Catholic Answers put that information out there.  Will it be a tidal wave, no, but it could hurt us with a group we need to get.

And they'll also care about Ridge being Pro Choice.

Those people are voting for McCain anyway.
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Beet
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« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2008, 04:37:34 pm »

Yeah honestly, you guys are debating over nothing. This whole brou-ha-ha was kicked up just to
(1) make McCain seem open-minded to moderate voters by willing to consider a pro-choice veep
(2) remind pro-life voters that McCain himself is, as he said, completely pro-life
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The love that set me free
BRTD
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« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2008, 04:40:06 pm »

Yeah honestly, you guys are debating over nothing. This whole brou-ha-ha was kicked up just to
(1) make McCain seem open-minded to moderate voters by willing to consider a pro-choice veep
(2) remind pro-life voters that McCain himself is, as he said, completely pro-life

So in other words, you think there's close to 0% chance Ridge is picked? (Of which I generally agree by the way.)
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Torie
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« Reply #110 on: August 25, 2008, 05:00:14 pm »
« Edited: August 25, 2008, 05:03:06 pm by Torie »

I bet you that there is no polling evidence that Ridge helps in PA at all. I haven't checked, but I make the bet anyway.

I never claimed that there was.  But because I live here, and I live in Erie, and I have actually worked on the ground here politically, I know that Ridge is immensely popular.

Ever single comment thus far has been aimed at either taking what I said out of context or just blatantly putting words in my mouth.

Chris, I never said that you did. My comment was not aimed at you. I was just giving my little opinion.  It actually was in response to a post Erc made, and right below his post. Torie is smart enough not to interject himself into the middle of a Chris v. Phil fight anyway. Tongue
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J. J.
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« Reply #111 on: August 25, 2008, 05:04:13 pm »

But huge-uber-Catholic organization will skip into action if you put Pawlenty on the ticket...

Yeah, ok.  Roll Eyes

And they'll be enthusiastic about a Pro Choice Catholic? Remember when Kerry won the Catholic vote in...oh...nevermind.



Pawlenty is a worse choice than Biden by a long shot, unless you expect MN to go Republican.

Lest we forget:

Img


Roll Eyes

No one is arguing that he's flipping MN, J.J.

Ah, then what good is he?  He carries the archconservatives and delivers them to McCain? 
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J. J.
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« Reply #112 on: August 25, 2008, 05:07:07 pm »

I bet you that there is no polling evidence that Ridge helps in PA at all. I haven't checked, but I make the bet anyway.

I never claimed that there was.  But because I live here, and I live in Erie, and I have actually worked on the ground here politically, I know that Ridge is immensely popular.

Ever single comment thus far has been aimed at either taking what I said out of context or just blatantly putting words in my mouth.

Chris, I never said that you did. My comment was not aimed at you. I was just giving my little opinion.  It actually was in response to a post Erc made, and right below his post. Torie is smart enough not to interject himself into the middle of a Chris v. Phil fight anyway. Tongue

IIRC, there was a poll result posted showing that Ridge would boost if not swing PA.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2008, 05:08:42 pm »


Ah, then what good is he?  He carries the archconservatives and delivers them to McCain? 

What is with this sudden idea that a running mate who doesn't carry his/her home state is meaningless?

Pawlenty does no harm. He satisfies a group of people that are very important to this party.
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Torie
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« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2008, 05:13:13 pm »

Hey, if Wisconsin returns to normalcy as a skin tight state, do not forget that the La Crosse area of Wisconsin is in the Twin Cities media market. Breaking news - Pawlenty might carry the cheese heads for McCain!  Tongue
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J. J.
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« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2008, 05:15:15 pm »


Ah, then what good is he?  He carries the archconservatives and delivers them to McCain? 

What is with this sudden idea that a running mate who doesn't carry his/her home state is meaningless?

Pawlenty does no harm. He satisfies a group of people that are very important to this party.

He does no good.  There are candidates out there that will.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2008, 05:16:13 pm »


Ah, then what good is he?  He carries the archconservatives and delivers them to McCain? 

What is with this sudden idea that a running mate who doesn't carry his/her home state is meaningless?

Pawlenty does no harm. He satisfies a group of people that are very important to this party.

He does no good.  There are candidates out there that will.

Whatever. It's not even worth arguing anymore.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2008, 05:29:21 pm »

Btw, here's a Bloggingheads clip in which (left of center) Noam Scheiber makes a decent case for Pawlenty (and implicitly, against Romney) on "relatability to the average Joe" grounds:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/13386?in=05:55&out=09:51
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J. J.
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« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2008, 05:38:49 pm »


Ah, then what good is he?  He carries the archconservatives and delivers them to McCain? 

What is with this sudden idea that a running mate who doesn't carry his/her home state is meaningless?

Pawlenty does no harm. He satisfies a group of people that are very important to this party.

He does no good.  There are candidates out there that will.

Whatever. It's not even worth arguing anymore.

I think it is.

I'm not a big fan of Mitt Romney, to the point that in a head to head race, I'd vote for Hillary.  Romney is those candidates for VP that will help.  I'd like a few other people out there, but they won't help; I frankly don't know Pawlenty enough to like him or not, but I know he is one of those that won't help.  So, if it's a choice between Pawlenty and Romney, I say choose Romney.  Ridge helps even more.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2008, 05:39:42 pm »


Ah, then what good is he?  He carries the archconservatives and delivers them to McCain? 

What is with this sudden idea that a running mate who doesn't carry his/her home state is meaningless?

Pawlenty does no harm. He satisfies a group of people that are very important to this party.

He does no good.  There are candidates out there that will.

Whatever. It's not even worth arguing anymore.

I think it is.

I'm not a big fan of Mitt Romney, to the point that in a head to head race, I'd vote for Hillary.  Romney is those candidates for VP that will help.  I'd like a few other people out there, but they won't help; I frankly don't know Pawlenty enough to like him or not, but I know he is one of those that won't help.  So, if it's a choice between Pawlenty and Romney, I say choose Romney.  Ridge helps even more.

Sorry but Romney clearly hurts more than he helps. How that is not clear to you is beyond me.
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J. J.
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« Reply #120 on: August 25, 2008, 05:44:54 pm »


Ah, then what good is he?  He carries the archconservatives and delivers them to McCain? 

What is with this sudden idea that a running mate who doesn't carry his/her home state is meaningless?

Pawlenty does no harm. He satisfies a group of people that are very important to this party.

He does no good.  There are candidates out there that will.

Whatever. It's not even worth arguing anymore.

I think it is.

I'm not a big fan of Mitt Romney, to the point that in a head to head race, I'd vote for Hillary.  Romney is those candidates for VP that will help.  I'd like a few other people out there, but they won't help; I frankly don't know Pawlenty enough to like him or not, but I know he is one of those that won't help.  So, if it's a choice between Pawlenty and Romney, I say choose Romney.  Ridge helps even more.

Sorry but Romney clearly hurts more than he helps. How that is not clear to you is beyond me.

Why and where?  Yes, a Mormon hurts in some areas, but those areas will still go for McCain.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #121 on: August 25, 2008, 05:48:18 pm »


Why and where?  Yes, a Mormon hurts in some areas, but those areas will still go for McCain.

The fact that he's flip flopped over the years. It wasn't simply Romney changing his mind. I also think he comes across as a smug businessman. People don't like the guy.
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The Duke
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« Reply #122 on: August 25, 2008, 06:03:36 pm »

Romney is not my ideal choice.  But between Romney, Pawlenty, Ridge, and Lieberman, I am going with Romney

I have said I don't think Pawlenty helps the ticket and don't think he's an adequate heir apparent.  I don't feel the need to repeat why.

I think Ridge is a better choice politically than Pawlenty, but is an even worse heir apparent than Pawlenty.

Please, someone make the case that either of these guys can actually be President.  I didn't think so.  Once you realize doing the job of President has nothing to do with what state you're from, these guys both look less appealing.

Lieberman is the riskiest politically, with the greatest prospect of helping and the greatest prospect of hurting the ticket.  He won't be the heir apparent, so that is not a consideration.  Since McCain looks like he can win this race without throwing a hail mary, Lieberman shouldn't be the pick.

Mitt Romney is not my favorite guy on earth, as everyone knows.  But if you don't think he helps in Michigan, New Hampshire, Nevada, and (a little bit) in Colorado then maybe politics isn't the sport for you.  Is he the ideal heir apparent?  No, he is not.  But he is the smartest guy in the party on domestic policy issues and was actually a good Governor of Massachusetts.  As to who wold make the best President between Romney and Pawlenty and Ridge, the answer has to be Mitt Romney.

That said, the best choice available is Sarah Palin.

Enter Phil: But she's even less experienced than Pawlenty.  We'd throw away our best argument!

No, Phil.  We wouldn't.  Experience is not our best argument.  It will do us as much good as it did Hillary.  Obama's weakness isn't that he's inexperienced, its that he isn't ready for the job.  Readiness has very little to do with how many years you've been in elective office.

This is a huge difference between Pawlenty and Palin: Pawlenty comes off as not ready, Palin comes off as ready.

So what is our best argument if not experience?  Drilling is our best argument.  McCain's comeback started in large part because he won the energy issue.  You want a VP that reminds everyone that Democrats are responsible for $4 gas, pick Sarah Palin.

A little identity politics won't hurt, either.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #123 on: August 25, 2008, 06:06:09 pm »



Enter Phil: But she's even less experienced than Pawlenty.  We'd throw away our best argument!

No, Phil.  We wouldn't.  Experience is not our best argument.  It will do us as much good as it did Hillary.  Obama's weakness isn't that he's inexperienced, its that he isn't ready for the job.  Readiness has very little to do with how many years you've been in elective office.

Others have made that argument just as much as I did but uh...

What's our argument with Palin? I like her and all but what does she have? She's a woman Governor. Ok?

Quote
This is a huge difference between Pawlenty and Palin: Pawlenty comes off as not ready, Palin comes off as ready.

Whatever.
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Torie
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« Reply #124 on: August 25, 2008, 06:06:50 pm »

I think Palin wanted to tax the oil companies to death (probably an Alaskan money grab move, but I am not sure), which plays right into Obama's hands. It is worth checking out. 
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