I may find out if Pawlenty is the running mate today...

[12th Doctor]

Super,

The Department of Homeland Security is a punch line and its a punch line in large part because of Tom Ridge.

If you don't think picking Bush's Homeland Security Secretary is going to be a major negative, you're just not seeing clearly.

And calm down a little, man.

I'm calm as can be.  When people keep chiming into to tell me to calm down... that is what makes me loose it.

Ridge was both an excellent student and a local start of high school athletics.  Tim Pawlenty never made it past JV on his high school hockey team.

OMG!  Tim Pawlenty: Not up to playing varsity level hockey -- not up to handling the nuclear launch codes.

Again, you are pointing out that one little thing that I said and saying "OMG high school athletics, what difference does that make?" When I pointed out that one little thing, in a long line of other things to prove the obvious point that Ridge's personal narrative, take as a whole owns Pawlenty's.  When they do those segments explaining who Tom ridge is, right after he is picked, its gonna sound way more impressive than Pawlenty, and that is what people will remember the most.

[12th Doctor]

I will definitely give credit where it's due. Phil owned the argument in this thread.

I know you would say that anyway, but how exactly?  I offered about 15 good reasons to put Ridge on the ticket (ing shut up about the high school comment, for the 50th time I only said it to illustrate a point), and all Phil has said is "Pawlenty doesn't piss off the base."  Well, so what?  Anyone who doesn't vote for us because Ridge is nominally pro-choice can be made up with the people who will vote for us, because we dont look like the Bob Jones Party, anymore.  And when Pawlenty was in Minnesoata, that was a small deal.  But huge-uber-Catholic organization will skip into action if you put Pawlenty on the ticket... Christ, I am bashing Catholics, BRTD, you should be eating this sh**t up.

[12th Doctor]

I bet you that there is no polling evidence that Ridge helps in PA at all. I haven't checked, but I make the bet anyway.

I never claimed that there was.  But because I live here, and I live in Erie, and I have actually worked on the ground here politically, I know that Ridge is immensely popular.

Ever single comment thus far has been aimed at either taking what I said out of context or just blatantly putting words in my mouth.

[12th Doctor]

But huge-uber-Catholic organization will skip into action if you put Pawlenty on the ticket...

Yeah, ok. 

And they'll be enthusiastic about a Pro Choice Catholic? Remember when Kerry won the Catholic vote in...oh...nevermind.

Pawlenty is a worse choice than Biden by a long shot, unless you expect MN to go Republican.

Lest we forget:

No one is arguing that he's flipping MN, J.J.

For the 80th time, Ridge could just barely be described as pro-choice.  He is opposed to abortion personally, and legally he actually restricted it as governor, and could make a very credible case for being anti-Roe... which is where the real battle is.

And please note, what I said was onyl in response to the notion that Ridge offends Catholics while Pawlenty does not.  Either one of them could, but at least Ridge buys us alot more.  I'm getting more than a little tired of people twisting my arguments around to make them sound like I am some damn extremist.

[12th Doctor]

And the little ladies you do Rosary and Alter, and vote 100% of the time will care, once groups like Catholic Answers put that information out there.  Will it be a tidal wave, no, but it could hurt us with a group we need to get.

[12th Doctor]

Romney is not my ideal choice.  But between Romney, Pawlenty, Ridge, and Lieberman, I am going with Romney

Ridge is not palatable enough for conservatives and he leaves us open to attacks so therefore... we should go with Romney?  I don't follow your logic.  And while there might not be polls that show that Ridge would boost the ticket, there are defiantly ones that show that Romney would kill it.

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Why, because Ridge voted against funding a murderous terrorist organization that Reagan himself didn't want to support, and because he favored a freeze on the number of times would kill end humanity with nuclear weapons?  As for his time as SHS, I don't know why people think he failed.  He led the most massive beaurocratic shift in the history of the United States, and he did it while fighting an active modern war.  There was never a successful attack while he was there, inspite of at least a half dozen attempts that we know of.  People laughed about duct tape, but that's the exact procedure recommended by DuPont (a Delaware based company, if Biden really want to go after Ridge) and the terror alert is the same system used by Israel.  The guy was as good as any, and better than most.

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In Ridge's case I totally reject that, but I don't suppose I can convince you, so okay.

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Romney doesn't help enough in Michigan to carry it... not by a long shot.  He might know people there, but they are the wrong crowd to appeal to.  The people Ridge knows in PA and Ohio are grassroots types, who are real Reagan Democrats, Hillary voters, and would be enticed to come out of us if Ridge is on the ticket.  The only way we don't win PA with ridge is if McCain himself proves to be too unpalatable for voters here... and if Ridge is a move to the center, then good.  McCain has swung so far to the right now to risk being unpalatable to the country as a whole.  We need to play to the middle.  As go those other states... if we absolutely need Colorado, Nevada and New Hampshire to win, then this thing is already over.  That's barely a third as many EV's as Ridge assists us with.

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I agree that experienced and ready aren't the same thing, but time spent actually in office doesn't hurt, not by a long shot.

Palin is one o fthose choices that looks good on paper, but I don't think she gets us a whole lot... women will still likely go more for Obama, and feminists will not support Palin.  We don't need to bring in Alaska.  And, with all due respect (and I really mean that) her family situation makes it difficult to justify the long hours.  I would rank her as maybe #3 out of the top 10 serious choices, but I still think Ridge puts us at more an advantage.

[12th Doctor]

And Ridge isn't winning PA for McCain. McCain will win it for himself.

Again, put Ridge on the ticket, and we only lose PA if McCain loses it for us.  Even if McCain wins PA on his own, he will have to expend alot more effort to do it, then he would if Ridge were on the ticket.  Of course having Ridge on there does automatically win the state, but it puts it into our column with a lot less effort and resources, which we can then use elsewhere.

[12th Doctor]

Now here's my question - Who would you rather have as VP - Pawlenty or Biden? You can only choose one of those!

I'd rather have Pawlenty (or Quayle), but if my choice is Pawlenty, I might get stuck with Biden.

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Then you don't understand the Pittsburgh and Erie media markets.

And for the 100th time, he also doesn't understand the regional interests and connections that tom ridge has.

[12th Doctor]

Ridge is not palatable enough for conservatives and he leaves us open to attacks so therefore... we should go with Romney?  I don't follow your logic.  And while there might not be polls that show that Ridge would boost the ticket, there are defiantly ones that show that Romney would kill it.

The last poll I saw showed McCain Romney within the margin of error and McCain-Ridge getting blown out.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1546

Yeah, its a Zogby poll, but we don't have any ohter useful data.

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Why, because Ridge voted against funding a murderous terrorist organization... ?

You're starting to lose it.

As for his time as SHS...

You've defended his time at DHS before.  I don't buy it.  He was a disaster.  You're defending duct tape and plastic sheeting?  Who cares what state DuPont is located in?

Even if he wasn't a disaster, he was in Bush's cabinet.  That is toxic.  You're arguing that we need to pick Ridge to move to the middle, then you ignore the fact that he was one of the most recognizable members of the administration McCain has to take great pains to run away from.

Romney doesn't help enough in Michigan to carry it... not by a long shot.  He might know people there, but they are the wrong crowd to appeal to.  The people Ridge knows in PA and Ohio are grassroots types, who are real Reagan Democrats, Hillary voters, and would be enticed to come out of us if Ridge is on the ticket.  The only way we don't win PA with ridge is if McCain himself proves to be too unpalatable for voters here... and if Ridge is a move to the center, then good.  McCain has swung so far to the right now to risk being unpalatable to the country as a whole.  We need to play to the middle.  As go those other states... if we absolutely need Colorado, Nevada and New Hampshire to win, then this thing is already over.  That's barely a third as many EV's as Ridge assists us with.

"Wrong crowd to appeal to", I don't even know what that means.

And the Romney name won Michigan in the primaries, so...

And you can write off New Hampshire, Nevada, and Colorado if you want but take any of those states from Bush in 2000 then Gore is President.

Palin is one o fthose choices that looks good on paper, but I don't think she gets us a whole lot... women will still likely go more for Obama, and feminists will not support Palin.  We don't need to bring in Alaska.  And, with all due respect (and I really mean that) her family situation makes it difficult to justify the long hours.  I would rank her as maybe #3 out of the top 10 serious choices, but I still think Ridge puts us at more an advantage.

No one is talking about dedicated feminists.  Suburban women, though, will like Palin.

Long hours as VP?  Does VP include duties I don't know about?  She's Governor of a state, I have to presume she's up to breaking ties in the Senate and greeting the girl scout who sold the most cookies.

If you mean the campaign hours, its a 60 day sprint.  She'll be fine with that.

For starters, the very same poll you just quoted put McCain/Rice on par with McCain/Romney... I rest my case.  There is no way McCain/Rice is a good ticket.

[12th Doctor]

The last poll I saw showed McCain Romney within the margin of error and McCain-Ridge getting blown out.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1546

Yeah, its a Zogby poll, but we don't have any ohter useful data.

Expanding on my last post, those numbers are low for Ridge, because the one thing most people remember about him right now is that Limbaugh and Hannity have been bashing him.  That will change.  The only reason Romney is ranked so high is, along with Rice, he has high name recognition.  That'll only make a difference in the short term.  Everyone else on the list polls exactly the same, because they are unknowns.  Compare this to a recent poll where Romney had the highest unfavorables of any GOP VP prospect.  John, your a brilliant strategic thinker, why are you buying into to this short term sh**t that won't matter by October?

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The Contra were a nasty bunch of people.  They killed Romero.  I can understand why someone might not be wild about supporting them.

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I addressed all of this before.  Not to sound dissmissive, but go back and read my earlier statements, I have nothing else to say.

My point was that if the Democrats are really dumn enough to go after "duct tape" it kinda puts Biden in an odd position, since I'm sure he doesn't want to piss off DuPont.  I doubt it would even come up.

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The kind of people that the Romney brand appeals to in Michigan, the people he is still really popular with (or rather his father is still popular with) are millionaires and business types who are supporting McCain anyway.  Ridge can help bring in working class voters.  Ridge is the epitome of working class and he has always had broad appeal to them... if you had ever lived in Erie then you would easily understand why.

As for the states in question... Odds are holding them or not holding them isn't going to be the difference between a win and loss.  If it is, than it is, but its less likely than PA and Ohio having the same effect.

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Doesn't the government of Alaska meet for, like three months total a year, or something like that?  The office of Vice President is more demanding, even if it isn't that glamorous.

[12th Doctor]

BTW, John if we are gonna go for a female governor, why Palin... why not Linda Lingle?  I hope it has nothing to do with physical attractiveness.

[12th Doctor]

Bump

[12th Doctor]

I get it, he does well in Erie.

No, you obviously don't get it, because you have no idea why he does so well in Erie.  he does so well because he a man who, despite his accomplishments, has no pretense about him.  He is a real member of the community, and people love him, because he is just like them.  He lives in a modest home, in a normal neighborhood, where anyone can go up to his door and have a reasonable expectation of seeing him in person (I did it once and got Michelle instead, but regardless).  He is still of the community even though the community thinks he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  That kinda attitude wins votes, and it will fit in well with what McCain is trying to do with his campaign.

[12th Doctor]

Ridge is the kinda guy who shows up at a local campaign HQ in 2006, when there is nothing in it for him, just to talk to people, say hi, and let everyone know what a great job they are doing.  sadly he was leaving when I popped back in, but he stayed for two hours.  That kinda thing means alot to people, and only someone who is really in touch with people would bother to do something like that.

[12th Doctor]

Ridge is the kinda guy who shows up at a local campaign HQ in 2006, when there is nothing in it for him, just to talk to people, say hi, and let everyone know what a great job they are doing.  sadly he was leaving when I popped back in, but he stayed for two hours.  That kinda thing means alot to people, and only someone who is really in touch with people would bother to do something like that.

Chris, you need to chill out, pal. Things can change in a moment's notice...and it still may be possible for Romney, Ridge, or Pawlenty. I will tell you this...unless you go out and go door to door for John McCain...we may not only lose Pennsylvania...but we may lose it badly. Get out there for McCain...pass the flyers and root for our guy....no bones or balls attached!

Why are you telling me to chill out?  There was nothing in what I said to even indicate that I am angry or worked up.

Anyway, I'm off o bed.  Obviously there is no converting the heathens.  And yes, Phil, I honestly do think it rather touching, as did the people there.

[12th Doctor]

It sounds more and more like you were personally touched by your experience with Ridge and are thinking emotionally about this.

I concede that Ridge does well in Erie, and you refuse to let me agree with you.

My point is that it is hard not to be "personally touched" by Ridge once you actually have experience with him... I have considerably less than many people, and those who have more don't have anything bad to say about him either.

Again, when you say "I concede he does well in Erie" you belittle my argument.  His charm is transferable, and that's what makes him a good running-mate.

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I see your reasons for Palin and told you I place her high on the list, but not #1, and while there are better options I think we should take them if we can.

The poll numbers you produced are soft.  Most of the VP choices produced no effect on the people being asked, and of the four who were well known, two of the choices (Ridge and Lieberman) have been run down by the conservative media as of late.  I know why you don't put Joe on, but Ridge's positives have no where to go but up, once he is on the ticket.  Rice and Romney are well known, but we all know Rice is not a winning choice, and while Romney might give a tiny, temporary boost, his negatives are pretty high, compared to other selections, in other polls.  Romney is a very polarizing figure within the party.  I don't think those numbers from that one poll mean a whole lot.

[12th Doctor]

Well, Phil... it was fun being a total waste of time, with you.