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  I may find out if Pawlenty is the running mate today...
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Author Topic: I may find out if Pawlenty is the running mate today...  (Read 22292 times)
12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2008, 02:56:32 am »

Ridge has a way better background and personal narrative and he comes off stronger.

You basically argued that Ridge had a bigger jockstrap in high school. Who cares?


 
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And I'm sorry, Phil, I do think the whole episode in 2002 I brought up with Pawlenty changing his plans round the Bush White House will be brought up.  And when I say "devastating" I don't mean nuclear bomb, but it will slow down the campaign and chain it to Bush even more... certainly more than ridge would.

You did mean nuclear bomb. You said it would be "the most devastating ad of the campaign."

How is God's name can the connection of Cheney asking Pawlenty to run for Governor instead of Senator be more of a chain to the Bush administration than a man who served in that administration?

These arguments aren't even making sense. I can respect a different opinion on the matter but saying that Ridge isn't as connected to the administration as Pawlenty is is outrageous.

1) Yes Phil, I said he had a bigger jock strap... nevermind Vietnam (which Ridge didn't have to go to), or working his way through Harvard (as a construction worker, because his parents couldn't afford it... Ridge got in on grades alone), or any of that other stuff... you saw the one thing that kinda offended you, and clung to it.

2) Because Ridges job wasn't political, and he came in to do his duty and get the thing moving... which he did.  He worked crazy hours everyday, and protected the country without being a partisan voice for the Administration.  Ridge was in the Adminstration, but he wasn't intimately involved with the -ups that everyone associates with it.

Pawlenty set his sights on the US Senate, and instead did the administrations bidding, because he was just a good little soldier.  I'm not disrespecting the man, but I don't see how you draw the parallel.

If you really can't see how those differ, then I don't know what to tell you.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2008, 02:57:39 am »

And the reason I brought up Ron Paul as a superior choice, is because, at least if we got him we would get the money and the fan club.

I am done taking this seriously. Completely finished. 


You have yet to answer my question as to what Pawlenty actually brings in.  All you have done was say he a nice guy and question Ridge.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2008, 02:59:51 am »

I asked to be convinced, Phil, and all you said was "He won Minnesota during a really bad year"... as I recall, the main reason was because the Democrats couldn't muster a reason not to reelect him.  That's good, but I need a better reason than that, and I'm not finding one.  I asked for one, but all I got was opinions as to why Ridge would be bad, and comparisons for why Pawlenty would not be worse.  *shrug*
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HardRCafé
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« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2008, 03:01:20 am »

And the reason I brought up Ron Paul as a superior choice, is because, at least if we got him we would get the money and the fan club.

At the expense of literally millions of otherwise McCain voters.  Ron Paul and Alan Keyes are the only two I can think of capable of that.

Ridge's base of power is larger than the state of PA, but even if it weren't, ability to carry PA does alot for us.

If there were reason to believe Ridge could deliver Pennsylvania, or Romney could deliver Michigan, they might be worth the risk.  Polls suggest otherwise.  Even so, pinning an entire electoral strategy on Pennsylvania is… eccentric for a Republican.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2008, 03:07:52 am »

And the reason I brought up Ron Paul as a superior choice, is because, at least if we got him we would get the money and the fan club.

At the expense of literally millions of otherwise McCain voters.  Ron Paul and Alan Keyes are the only two I can think of capable of that.

Ridge's base of power is larger than the state of PA, but even if it weren't, ability to carry PA does alot for us.

If there were reason to believe Ridge could deliver Pennsylvania, or Romney could deliver Michigan, they might be worth the risk.  Polls suggest otherwise.  Even so, pinning an entire electoral strategy on Pennsylvania is… eccentric for a Republican.


I don't think Ron Paul is a good pick... thats kinda the point.


You are obviously trying really hard not to understand what I am saying, and so I am going to go to bed.  Because I refuse to continue to write multifaceted responses to points accross several pages of posts to have one sentence picked out.
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HardRCafé
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« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2008, 03:10:47 am »

You are obviously trying really hard not to understand what I am saying,

I apparently have a lot of company.

Good night.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2008, 03:17:23 am »

You are obviously trying really hard not to understand what I am saying,

I apparently have a lot of company.

Good night.

Do me a favor.  Read through what I have said on this thread.

And then go to this link, and read through this thread. 

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=81323.msg1681593#msg1681593

Read what J.J. says also.  The reason I am so short tempered is not only because you can in here and insult me like an asshole, but because I have given pretty good explanations for why I think what I think, and they seem to go ignored in favor of nit picking a couple comments here and there.
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The Duke
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« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2008, 03:25:51 am »

Super,

The Department of Homeland Security is a punch line and its a punch line in large part because of Tom Ridge.

If you don't think picking Bush's Homeland Security Secretary is going to be a major negative, you're just not seeing clearly.

And calm down a little, man.

Phil,

Let's be honest about why people say Pawlenty is going to satisfy the base.  What people actually mean is that he will satisfy the evangelicals because he is one.  Pawlenty is not a conservative, he is only seen as a conservative because he is an evangelical married to another evangelical.

Pawlenty does nothng for the small government folks because Pawlenty with his "Sam's Club not the country club" nonsense is in favor of Bush-style compassionate consertvatism.

In other words, he's for big gvoernment.

And as I've said before, he isn't ready for prime time and probably never will be.  He is just not a commanding presence.

I've heard you employ this line about Dan Quayle not costing us the election in 1988 therefore it doesn't matter how stone cold stupid Tim Pawlenty is, but it's a terrible argument.  Dan Quayle did cost Bush votes in 1988, it just wasn't enough votes to cost him the election.  In this election, we are not riding Reagan's record to victory over a horrible candidate.  We're running against the failures of the Bush years and against a very skilled candidate.  We don't have the margin for error that Bush had in 1988.  Pawlenty won't be a disaster at Quayle's level, but he will be a mistake and will cost us votes everywhere outside Minnesota.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2008, 03:30:13 am »



1) Yes Phil, I said he had a bigger jock strap... nevermind Vietnam (which Ridge didn't have to go to), or working his way through Harvard (as a construction worker, because his parents couldn't afford it... Ridge got in on grades alone), or any of that other stuff... you saw the one thing that kinda offended you, and clung to it.

That's great and all. Really it is.

Oh, the athletic thing didn't "offend" me. It was just completely assinine to mention it. Totally irrelevant.

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2) Because Ridges job wasn't political, and he came in to do his duty and get the thing moving... which he did.  He worked crazy hours everyday, and protected the country without being a partisan voice for the Administration.  Ridge was in the Adminstration, but he wasn't intimately involved with the -ups that everyone associates with it.

But...he was still in the administration. You can make it sound as nice as you'd like, Super, but he was a member of the Bush administration and people will always see it that way. So, please, don't try to make him see less connected than Pawlenty.

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Pawlenty set his sights on the US Senate, and instead did the administrations bidding, because he was just a good little soldier.  I'm not disrespecting the man, but I don't see how you draw the parallel.

Dude, you are absolutely clueless if you think that one thing connects anyone to the administration moreso than someone who actually served in the damn administration.

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If you really can't see how those differ, then I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah, I see how they differ. Person A served in the administration and people will always know that. The Obama campaign will make sure that that is mentioned just as much as they say "Bush-McCain." Person B has a loose connection based on a campaign that never happened because of a political suggestion from Cheney. Most people won't get the connection or won't care. It'll be little more than a talking point; far from a "devastating" blow in a campaign ad.

I understand the differences quite well. You clearly don't.


And the reason I brought up Ron Paul as a superior choice, is because, at least if we got him we would get the money and the fan club.

I am done taking this seriously. Completely finished. 


You have yet to answer my question as to what Pawlenty actually brings in.  All you have done was say he a nice guy and question Ridge.

Are you blind? Seriously. Are you blind? I want that answered because I clearly answered your question several times:

I've stated this several times now: He's young and he satisfies the base. He is the choice that avoids problems.


Now answer this question: Was that not clearly posted earlier? Don't tell me I have yet to say something when I've been repeating it for you.

I asked to be convinced, Phil, and all you said was "He won Minnesota during a really bad year"... as I recall, the main reason was because the Democrats couldn't muster a reason not to reelect him.  That's good, but I need a better reason than that, and I'm not finding one.  I asked for one, but all I got was opinions as to why Ridge would be bad, and comparisons for why Pawlenty would not be worse.  *shrug*

Yeah, apparently winning in a Democratic state in a terrible year for any Republican isn't good enough for some of us.  Roll Eyes

Couldn't muster a reason not to re-elect him? I stated several times that his challenger was a guy that they hyped up big time. He was a guy that led Pawlenty several times during the campaign. Pawlenty looked like a goner. Then he re-took the lead.

And guess what? With a running mate, it's ok that I offered you reasons why Ridge would be bad but Pawlenty wouldn't be worse. That's what we have to aim for. When we decide to base political strategy around who has a more fanatical fan base at the Erie supermarkets, I'll give you a call.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2008, 03:34:03 am »


Let's be honest about why people say Pawlenty is going to satisfy the base.  What people actually mean is that he will satisfy the evangelicals because he is one.  Pawlenty is not a conservative, he is only seen as a conservative because he is an evangelical married to another evangelical.

Pawlenty does nothng for the small government folks because Pawlenty with his "Sam's Club not the country club" nonsense is in favor of Bush-style compassionate consertvatism.

In other words, he's for big gvoernment.

Aside from his support for the smoking ban, I've yet to see "big government" from Pawlenty. Either way, he satisfies the people we can't afford to piss off.


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I've heard you employ this line about Dan Quayle not costing us the election in 1988 therefore it doesn't matter how stone cold stupid Tim Pawlenty is, but it's a terrible argument.

John, with all due respect, you are in no position to call the man "stone cold stupid." What do you have that suggests that the guy is stupid? Seriously. Ok, you think he sounds stupid because of the way he speaks. He sounded fine to me. He's just a soft spoken guy. Start comparing him to Quayle when he's saying something stupid.

  
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Dan Quayle did cost Bush votes in 1988, it just wasn't enough votes to cost him the election.  In this election, we are not riding Reagan's record to victory over a horrible candidate.  We're running against the failures of the Bush years and against a very skilled candidate.  We don't have the margin for error that Bush had in 1988.  Pawlenty won't be a disaster at Quayle's level, but he will be a mistake and will cost us votes everywhere outside Minnesota.

Some people are really blowing this out of proportion. Give me a call when he starts saying really crazy stuff like Quayle. You have absolutely no case for him costing us tons of votes based on his speaking.
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The Duke
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« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2008, 03:43:33 am »

Okay, I just said he wasn't going to be a Quayle-level disaster.  Did you read the post or simply assume your usual Pawlenty apologist position?

As for big government, how about Pawlenty's support of S-CHIP expansion?  This was the key size of government issue of the last year.  Democrats wanted to hugely increase the number of people dependent on government for their health care and Tim Pawlenty wanted to go along with them.

Not to metnion he was against the surge, demonstrating total empty headedness on foreign policy.

If you aren't good on defense and you don't believe in small government, what precisely do you bring to the table that is of interest to me?

As for the soft-soken bit, it won't play anywhere outside the upper midwest.  Outside the upper midwest people want a little bit of panache.  If there was ever an election where it should be obvious to everyone that style matters, it's this election.

Pawlenty doesn't have the style and he doesn't have the substance.  What does he have?
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2008, 03:49:52 am »

Okay, I just said he wasn't going to be a Quayle-level disaster.  Did you read the post or simply assume your usual Pawlenty apologist position?

But you did call him "stone cold stupid" so...

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As for big government, how about Pawlenty's support of S-CHIP expansion?  This was the key size of government issue of the last year.  Democrats wanted to hugely increase the number of people dependent on government for their health care and Tim Pawlenty wanted to go along with them.

I think plenty of conservatives supported this in Congress as well.

I'm not looking for a debate on whether or not he's a "true" conservative. He appeals to the people that need to stay satisfied.

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Not to metnion he was against the surge, demonstrating total empty headedness on foreign policy.

Well, yes, that's a problem. I totally agree with you there.

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If you aren't good on defense and you don't believe in small government, what precisely do you bring to the table that is of interest to me?

We weren't discussing what appeals to you though.  Wink  You're a McCain fan anyway.


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Pawlenty doesn't have the style and he doesn't have the substance.  What does he have?

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since I think he has an appealing style and enough substance.
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« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2008, 03:56:54 am »

He didn't tell you? I'm shocked.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2008, 04:03:26 am »

He didn't tell you? I'm shocked.

...

He actually whispered it to me and then gave me a wink. I promised not to tell anyone though.



Wink
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Everett
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« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2008, 04:07:35 am »

He didn't tell you? I'm shocked.

...

He actually whispered it to me and then gave me a wink. I promised not to tell anyone though.



Wink
Gave you a wink, eh? Did he give you a suggestive pat on the backside as well?

(The answer had better be yes, or I'm going to be forever disappointed.)
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2008, 11:35:02 am »

He didn't tell you? I'm shocked.

...

He actually whispered it to me and then gave me a wink. I promised not to tell anyone though.



Wink
Gave you a wink, eh? Did he give you a suggestive pat on the backside as well?

(The answer had better be yes, or I'm going to be forever disappointed.)

There were people around, Everett. He couldn't. We all know he wanted to....  Tongue
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2008, 11:52:27 am »

Ridge was both an excellent student and a local start of high school athletics.  Tim Pawlenty never made it past JV on his high school hockey team.

OMG!  Tim Pawlenty: Not up to playing varsity level hockey -- not up to handling the nuclear launch codes.
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The love that set me free
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« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2008, 02:12:20 pm »

As someone who is probably as neutral as one can get in an argument between Phil and Soulty and doesn't think either Ridge or Pawlenty will get picked (Romney, sorry)...I have to say Phil won this one. Big time.

Is anyone seriously going to consider the high school athletic level of the running mate as a serious factor in who they vote for? LOL.

And I'll just also add that even I didn't know Pawlenty was an ex-Catholic until after 2006. It was never an issue here. Clearly Minnesota Catholics don't care. Of course I don't think Pawlenty is a good pick either (even thinking from a Republican perspective), but John Ford's arguments are much more as to why.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2008, 02:33:52 pm »

Super,

The Department of Homeland Security is a punch line and its a punch line in large part because of Tom Ridge.

If you don't think picking Bush's Homeland Security Secretary is going to be a major negative, you're just not seeing clearly.

And calm down a little, man.

I'm calm as can be.  When people keep chiming into to tell me to calm down... that is what makes me loose it.

Ridge was both an excellent student and a local start of high school athletics.  Tim Pawlenty never made it past JV on his high school hockey team.

OMG!  Tim Pawlenty: Not up to playing varsity level hockey -- not up to handling the nuclear launch codes.


Again, you are pointing out that one little thing that I said and saying "OMG high school athletics, what difference does that make?" When I pointed out that one little thing, in a long line of other things to prove the obvious point that Ridge's personal narrative, take as a whole owns Pawlenty's.  When they do those segments explaining who Tom ridge is, right after he is picked, its gonna sound way more impressive than Pawlenty, and that is what people will remember the most.
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riceowl
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« Reply #94 on: August 25, 2008, 02:41:27 pm »

i have a headache from this thread. and it started so adorably, with the spirit of bipartisanship.  Keystone Phil and jfern joking with each other! touching.
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BRTD
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« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2008, 02:52:17 pm »

I will definitely give credit where it's due. Phil owned the argument in this thread.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2008, 03:22:45 pm »

I will definitely give credit where it's due. Phil owned the argument in this thread.

I know you would say that anyway, but how exactly?  I offered about 15 good reasons to put Ridge on the ticket (ing shut up about the high school comment, for the 50th time I only said it to illustrate a point), and all Phil has said is "Pawlenty doesn't piss off the base."  Well, so what?  Anyone who doesn't vote for us because Ridge is nominally pro-choice can be made up with the people who will vote for us, because we dont look like the Bob Jones Party, anymore.  And when Pawlenty was in Minnesoata, that was a small deal.  But huge-uber-Catholic organization will skip into action if you put Pawlenty on the ticket... Christ, I am bashing Catholics, BRTD, you should be eating this sh**t up.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2008, 03:36:16 pm »

I wouldn't deny that Ridge brings some assets or that you can make a lengthy list of reasons why Ridge should be the guy.  But you can't just tally up the number of reasons in favor of Ridge and compare against the number of reasons against.  Some reasons are a lot more important than others.  And some people view these reasons against Ridge as being dealbreakers:

1) pro-choice on abortion (And the problem isn't just that X number of people would vote for him on that basis and Y number of people against.  The bigger issue is just that it could lead to intra-party civil war, and the spectacle of that would present a huge PR nightmare for McCain....which he could easily just avoid by picking someone else.)

2) prominent member of the Bush administration for 3+ years

3) didn't exactly get sterling reviews while in that job while in the Bush administration

I still maintain that if McCain thinks he can get away with picking a pro-choicer, he might as well go the distance on that and pick a woman.
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« Reply #98 on: August 25, 2008, 04:08:10 pm »

On net, I think we can agree that Pawlenty is a safer choice than Ridge.  Pawlenty doesn't get anyone mad, doesn't piss anyone off, comes across as a bit of a lightweight but he's no Dan Quayle.

Ridge is a riskier choice (and, probably, on net, a worse choice on average)...but there is the possibility that he could be quite helpful, if he brings in PA and the McCain media team is able to paint Ridge in exactly the way Soulty described.

If McCain felt like he needed to gamble, Ridge might not be a bad option.  But, considering that McCain is down maybe 1 or 2 points nationally, I wouldn't risk Ridge at this point.  If he were down 4 or more, I might advise him to roll the dice...but we're not there right now.
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Torie
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« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2008, 04:10:28 pm »

I bet you that there is no polling evidence that Ridge helps in PA at all. I haven't checked, but I make the bet anyway.
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