Juvenile Criminal Responsibility and Treatment Bill (Law'd)

[minionofmidas]

Age of Criminal Responsibility Bill

For in all matters where criminal offences are matters under the jurisdiction of the federal government of Atlasia:

1. No person under the age of 8 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.

2a. Persons aged between 8 and 14 years old shall be presumed to be incapable of committing an offence under the law.

2b. This presumption may be rebutted where it is proven, on the balance of probabilities, that having had due regard to the child’s age and level of maturity, the court determines that the person did have a full understanding of what was involved in the commission of the offence.


Sponsor: Jas.


Editted the friendly amendment into this post in order not to lose track of it.

[Torie]

2b. This presumption may be rebutted where it is proven, on the balance of probabilities, that having had due regard to the child’s age and level of maturity, the court determines that the person did not have a full understanding of what was involved in the commission of the offence.

 Isn't the inclusion of "not" errant?

Young kids who kill need some sort of handling even if you don't call them "criminals." What will be the mechanism for the state to have some authority over them?  Call them "delinquents" call them what you like, but the issue is the form of punishment isn't it?

I think we are missing the ball here perhaps.

[Јas]

2b. This presumption may be rebutted where it is proven, on the balance of probabilities, that having had due regard to the child’s age and level of maturity, the court determines that the person did not have a full understanding of what was involved in the commission of the offence. Isn't the inclusion of "not" errant?

Apologies, you're quite right.
I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Young kids who kill need some sort of handling even if you don't call them "criminals." What will be the mechanism for the state to have some authority over them?  Call them "delinquents" call them what you like, but the issue is the form of punishment isn't it?

I think we are missing the ball here perhaps.

You're quite right that this is an issue which should also be addressed, however the bill is simply a statement intended as a statement of principle that it serves little purpose to go through the procedures of charging and prosecuting the very young. What is the most adequate route for dealing with such children, that I can't say for sure, and am quite open to suggestion and discussion on.

[Torie]

2b. This presumption may be rebutted where it is proven, on the balance of probabilities, that having had due regard to the child’s age and level of maturity, the court determines that the person did not have a full understanding of what was involved in the commission of the offence. Isn't the inclusion of "not" errant?

Apologies, you're quite right.
I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Young kids who kill need some sort of handling even if you don't call them "criminals." What will be the mechanism for the state to have some authority over them?  Call them "delinquents" call them what you like, but the issue is the form of punishment isn't it?

I think we are missing the ball here perhaps.

You're quite right that this is an issue which should also be addressed, however the bill is simply a statement intended as a statement of principle that it serves little purpose to go through the procedures of charging and prosecuting the very young. What is the most adequate route for dealing with such children, that I can't say for sure, and am quite open to suggestion and discussion on.

Well we need some process to know whether the young un killed or not, before processing him into "juvie"  hall or whatever. What should that process be? Truncating due process for the young might be screwing them come to think of it, as it were.

I will try in due course to rework this. I understand where you are coming from, and largely agree with it, but this dog as written won't hunt. I think it emanates from the now SCOTUS banned capital punishment penalty for the young and retarded.

[Sensei]

I'd like to propose an amendment to change the text of section 1

1. No person under the age of 10 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.
 
and 2a

2a. Persons aged between 10 and 14 years old shall be presumed to be incapable of committing an offence under the law.


14 might be a little old, though.

[minionofmidas]

I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Alright, the errant will not be removed by friendly amendment.

Senators have 24 hours not to object.

[Хahar 🤔]

I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Alright, the errant will not be removed by friendly amendment.

Senators have 24 hours not to object.

I think you mean to say that the errant not will be removed by friendly amendment.

[minionofmidas]

I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Alright, the errant will not be removed by friendly amendment.

Senators have 24 hours not to object.

I think you mean to say that the errant "not" will be removed by friendly amendment.

I was just kidding. The lack of the "s makes Jas' point incredibly easy to misread. Note the "not to object".

[Хahar 🤔]

I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Alright, the errant will not be removed by friendly amendment.

Senators have 24 hours not to object.

I think you mean to say that the errant "not" will be removed by friendly amendment.

I was just kidding. The lack of the "s makes Jas' point incredibly easy to misread. Note the "not to object".

I know, I know.

[minionofmidas]

The vote is on the amendment:

to change the text of section 1

1. No person under the age of 10 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.
 
and 2a

2a. Persons aged between 10 and 14 years old shall be presumed to be incapable of committing an offence under the law.

Aye.

[Bacon King]

aye

[CultureKing]

aye

[DownWithTheLeft]

Aye, although 14 is kind of high

[Јas]

Nay

[Torie]

Aye, although the bill itself is still fundamentally flawed. I will try to offer something better this weekend as an amendment.

[minionofmidas]

Current vote count:

Aye 5 (Lewis, Kings, Dwtl, Torie)
Nay 1 (Jas)
yet to vote 4 (Sensei, Al, Meeker, Verily)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nay

[Sensei]

aye

[minionofmidas]

This amendment passes.

Vote count:

Aye 6 (Lewis, Kings, Dwtl, Torie, Sensei)
Nay 2 (Jas, Al)
yet to vote 2 (Meeker, Verily)

[minionofmidas]

Aye, although the bill itself is still fundamentally flawed. I will try to offer something better this weekend as an amendment.

Please do.

[minionofmidas]

Grrr. Debate in this Senate has died down completely it seems.

We're a little over 24 hours, but I will ignore this given Torie's statements. Somebody should help me keep debate open, though.

[minionofmidas]

A propos of nothing, my current username is related to the Senate.

It's a reference to the Billy Bragg song, Ideology:

When one voice rules the nation
Just because they're on top of the pile
Doesn't mean their vision is the clearest
The voices of the people
Are falling on deaf ears
Our politicians all become careerists
They must declare their interests
But not their company cars
Is there more to a seat in parliament
Then sitting on your arse
And the best of all this bad bunch
Are shouting to be heard
Above the sound of ideologies clashing

Outside the patient millions
Who put them into power
Expect a little more back for their taxes
Like school books, beds in hospitals
And peace in our bloody time
All they get is old men grinding axes
Who've built their private fortunes
On the things they can rely
The courts, the secret handshake
The stock exchange and the old school tie
For God and queen and country
All things they justify
Above the sound of ideologies clashing

God bless the civil service
The nation's saving grace
While we expect democracy
They're laughing in our face
And although our cries get louder
Their laughter gets louder still
Above the sound of ideologies clashing

[Bacon King]

My current username references the fact that bacon is tasty. I first created it on a whim because I needed a name for my GameFAQs (video game website) account, in the summer of '02. I was twelve years old so the name was/is understandibly... odd. I've stuck with it all this time because I've never really thought of anything better.

[Torie]

Here is my amendment, aka rewrite, of the Bill:

Juvenile Criminal Responsibility and Treatment Act

For in all matters where criminal offenses are matters under the jurisdiction of the federal government of Atlasia:

1. Persons under the age of 10 shall be subject to a separate system of justice known as the Juvenile Justice System. Persons subject to the Juvenile Justice System are referred to herein as “Juveniles.”

2. Persons between the ages of 10 and 14 shall also be subject to the Juvenile Justice System except where it is found by the court by clear and convincing evidence that, having taken into account the child’s age and level of maturity, the person in question did in fact have a substantial understanding of the gravity of the wrong associated with the commission of the offense.

3. The Juvenile Justice System shall involve a judge or a specially appointed master of the judge rather than a jury making a determination as to whether or not the Juvenile in question by clear and convincing evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt, and  with due regard for protecting the rights of the Juvenile to have a fair hearing and with representation of counsel, committed the offense of which the Juvenile is charged, and then with respect to  Juveniles found to have committed such offense, prescribing a program focused on  treatment and rehabilitation rather than punishment (“Prescribed Program of Treatment”) which however may involve some form of detention and restrictions on the  rights of movement and conduct of such Juvenile. The emphasis of the Prescribed Program of Treatment shall be on the protection of the Juvenile from influences detrimental to the Juvenile’s welfare, and causing the Juvenile to form the habits and conscience necessary to become a law abiding individual.

4. When the Juvenile reaches the age of majority, or when the term of the Juveniles Prescribed Program of Treatment expires, whichever is later, the Juvenile’s court record for all acts subject to the Juvenile Justice System shall be expunged.

[minionofmidas]

Here is my amendment, aka rewrite, of the Bill:

Juvenile Criminal Responsibility and Treatment Act

For in all matters where criminal offenses are matters under the jurisdiction of the federal government of Atlasia:

1. Persons under the age of 8 shall be subject to a separate system of justice known as the Juvenile Justice System. Persons subject to the Juvenile Justice System are referred to herein as “Juveniles.”

2. Persons between the ages of 8 and 14 shall also be subject to the Juvenile Justice System except where it is found by the court by clear and convincing evidence that, having taken into account the child’s age and level of maturity, the person in question did in fact have a substantial understanding of the gravity of the wrong associated with the commission of the offense.

3. The Juvenile Justice System shall involve a judge or a specially appointed master of the judge rather than a jury making a determination as to whether or not the Juvenile in question by clear and convincing evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt, and  with due regard for protecting the rights of the Juvenile to have a fair hearing and with representation of counsel, committed the offense of which the Juvenile is charged, and then with respect to  Juveniles found to have committed such offense, prescribing a program focused on  treatment and rehabilitation rather than punishment (“Prescribed Program of Treatment”) which however may involve some form of detention and restrictions on the  rights of movement and conduct of such Juvenile. The emphasis of the Prescribed Program of Treatment shall be on the protection of the Juvenile from influences detrimental to the Juvenile’s welfare, and causing the Juvenile to form the habits and conscience necessary to become a law abiding individual.

4. When the Juvenile reaches the age of majority, or when the term of the Juveniles Prescribed Program of Treatment expires, whichever is later, the Juvenile’s court record for all acts subject to the Juvenile Justice System shall be expunged.

Yeah, well, no.
It's a good idea actually, but not for children that small. I must insist that

No person under the age of 10 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.