Motion to Expel Senators Dwtl and PiT

[HappyWarrior]

I am at the moment undecided, leaning towards voting againest expulsion just to allow DWTL to face the voters in the next election.  Allow them to decide his fate and if there is any criminal aspect allow the AG to prosecute.  I'm just not sure it's our place.

[minionofmidas]

Isn't there also a motion to expel PiT?

Ugh.

The strange ways the human brain works... I was intending this thread to be about both, but reading up on the earlier motion to expel Dwtl, and the earlier motion to expel two Senators where one of the two motions was dropped (after the Senator in question resigned) and also possibly subconcsciously influenced by personal sympathy.

My sincerest apologies. Yes, this thread is about both motions.

[minionofmidas]

I don't think deliberately spoiling a ballot is a crime, or even unethical. The guys found a loophole and went with it.

But was the exploitation of said loophole ethical?

I think so. Heck, waiting to vote until the last moment is kind of gaming the system too.

But it's also Atlasian tradition, and is fully within the spirit of the law. Intentional ballot-spoling as a means of exploiting the non-monotonocity of the system is not.

Or that's the way I see it, at least.

It has happened before, but has certainly never been considered ethical or okay to do.

The last time it happened, the law against it was passed as a result. I'm not sure whether any Senators were implicated back then, but if so they certainly weren't sanctioned.

[minionofmidas]

I should perhaps make my own position clear.

I currently lean towards taking no action at this point, but awaiting the results of criminal proceedings. If a crime has been committed but the court does not impose a ban on holding office, or if there is clear evidence that a crime has been committed but the criminal gets off thanks to a biased southeastern jury, I would very much want to reserve the right to take action at a later point.

I'm still swayable by argument.

[Јas]

It is up to we Senators to decide what morals and standards we hold each other to, just as much as it is up to the people. DWTL will be re-elected to the Senate, this is not in doubt. The RPP's cadre of silent voters will see to that. We can though send a powerful message - that we hold our elections and electoral process in some esteem and that as sworn defenders of the Constitution, we are guardians of that process as much, if not moreso, than anyone else.

This motion makes a statement that the behaviour in question was unacceptable for any member in good standing of this chamber. I will be asking my fellow Senators to make that same statement by voting in favour of the motion.

[Peter]

I would point out that one of DWTL or PiT is likely to have indicated to the other the fact that invalidation of votes was an option. They may have already stated who originated the idea elsewhere (I'm not looking) or it may be a secret which they never share - nonetheless I find it implausible that they both originated the idea independently.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I would like to make clear that I tend to agree with Torie that spoiling one's ballot intentionally is not unethical per se. Rather, I fear that if parties begin organize massive ballot spoiling drives, it will take a lot of fun out of the elections. The point is to get a law passed that will help preserve the fun of the elections.

[DownWithTheLeft]

It is up to we Senators to decide what morals and standards we hold each other to, just as much as it is up to the people. DWTL will be re-elected to the Senate, this is not in doubt. The RPP's cadre of silent voters will see to that. We can though send a powerful message - that we hold our elections and electoral process in some esteem and that as sworn defenders of the Constitution, we are guardians of that process as much, if not moreso, than anyone else.

This motion makes a statement that the behaviour in question was unacceptable for any member in good standing of this chamber. I will be asking my fellow Senators to make that same statement by voting in favour of the motion.

The only powerful motion you are trying to send is that a liberal senate can expel conservative senators they do not like.  BTW, the motion is for BOTH senators not one or the other

[DownWithTheLeft]

I would point out that one of DWTL or PiT is likely to have indicated to the other the fact that invalidation of votes was an option. They may have already stated who originated the idea elsewhere (I'm not looking) or it may be a secret which they never share - nonetheless I find it implausible that they both originated the idea independently.

PiT did not tell me to do it, the only reason I did was because I saw that he was doing it and the discussion that was going on about it.

[Хahar 🤔]

It is up to we Senators to decide what morals and standards we hold each other to, just as much as it is up to the people. DWTL will be re-elected to the Senate, this is not in doubt. The RPP's cadre of silent voters will see to that. We can though send a powerful message - that we hold our elections and electoral process in some esteem and that as sworn defenders of the Constitution, we are guardians of that process as much, if not moreso, than anyone else.

This motion makes a statement that the behaviour in question was unacceptable for any member in good standing of this chamber. I will be asking my fellow Senators to make that same statement by voting in favour of the motion.

The only powerful motion you are trying to send is that a liberal senate can expel conservative senators they do not like.  BTW, the motion is for BOTH senators not one or the other

It's for one or the other, they're just both on this thread.

[Associate Justice PiT]

DWTL will be re-elected to the Senate, this is not in doubt. The RPP's cadre of silent voters will see to that.

     If you feel that way, how about an up-or-down public referendum on whether DWTL & I should run for re-election as Senators?

[DownWithTheLeft]

DWTL will be re-elected to the Senate, this is not in doubt. The RPP's cadre of silent voters will see to that.

     If you feel that way, how about an up-or-down public referendum on whether DWTL & I should run for re-election as Senators?

Due to the overwhemingly left-tilt of Atlasia, that would be stupid we would obviously lose.  That is why PR is so great, no matter how much Jas kicks and screams conservatives still have a voice

[Хahar 🤔]

DWTL will be re-elected to the Senate, this is not in doubt. The RPP's cadre of silent voters will see to that.

     If you feel that way, how about an up-or-down public referendum on whether DWTL & I should run for re-election as Senators?

Due to the overwhemingly left-tilt of Atlasia, that would be stupid we would obviously lose.  That is why PR is so great, no matter how much Jas kicks and screams conservatives still have a voice

Then why did you hate it?

[Associate Justice PiT]

DWTL will be re-elected to the Senate, this is not in doubt. The RPP's cadre of silent voters will see to that.

     If you feel that way, how about an up-or-down public referendum on whether DWTL & I should run for re-election as Senators?

Due to the overwhemingly left-tilt of Atlasia, that would be stupid we would obviously lose.  That is why PR is so great, no matter how much Jas kicks and screams conservatives still have a voice

     There are other conservatives who could take our seats if we lose the referendum. However, regardless of the outcome, it cannot be said that our re-election is guaranteed by our "cadre of silent voters" if we choose to go that route. Indeed, our odds of re-election would be rather poor in that case.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Then why did you hate it?

I hate it applied to regional seats as that is direct representation.  I like it for the former district seats

[Хahar 🤔]

Then why did you hate it?

I hate it applied to regional seats as that is direct representation.  I like it for the former district seats

You hated it before.

And the distinction seems rather odd. Why would a region have special representation as opposed to, say, a group of people who edit the Wiki?

[DownWithTheLeft]

Then why did you hate it?

I hate it applied to regional seats as that is direct representation.  I like it for the former district seats

You hated it before.

And the distinction seems rather odd. Why would a region have special representation as opposed to, say, a group of people who edit the Wiki?

People to conjure in regions in which they feel politically fit.  JCPers in the Pacific, conservatives in the Dirty South, moderates in the Northeast, populists in the Mideast, and who knows what in the Midwest

[Хahar 🤔]

Then why did you hate it?

I hate it applied to regional seats as that is direct representation.  I like it for the former district seats

You hated it before.

And the distinction seems rather odd. Why would a region have special representation as opposed to, say, a group of people who edit the Wiki?

People to conjure in regions in which they feel politically fit.  JCPers in the Pacific, conservatives in the Dirty South, moderates in the Northeast, populists in the Mideast, and who knows what in the Midwest

But if we havce national seats, people can be represented directly and wouldn't have to take the trouble of moving.

And where do liberals fit in?

[DownWithTheLeft]

And where do liberals fit in?

There pretty much scattered everywhere in small doses

[Хahar 🤔]

And where do liberals fit in?

There pretty much scattered everywhere in small doses

Exactly. That's where your system breaks down. There's no SDP region.

[DownWithTheLeft]

And where do liberals fit in?

There pretty much scattered everywhere in small doses

Exactly. That's where your system breaks down. There's no SDP region.

Well then make one.  You're the one staying in California   The Midwest seems ripe for the picking if you ask me

[Хahar 🤔]

And where do liberals fit in?

There pretty much scattered everywhere in small doses

Exactly. That's where your system breaks down. There's no SDP region.

Well then make one.  You're the one staying in California   The Midwest seems ripe for the picking if you ask me

Ah, the Midwest has issues.

Like I said, why go to the trouble of moving? National elections have worked fine, haven't they?

[DownWithTheLeft]

Like I said, why go to the trouble of moving? National elections have worked fine, haven't they?

For me, not for you

[Хahar 🤔]

Like I said, why go to the trouble of moving? National elections have worked fine, haven't they?

For me, not for you

Well, we got Al elected.

The point is that national elections represent the people of Atlasia better than regional elections.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

When it became clear what SPC and PiT had done I wrote out a motion calling for the explusion of PiT and was a click away from posting it. But that was a spur of the moment, heat of the moment really, thing and a little time means it's possible to look at things in a clearer light.

My thinking at the moment is that prosecutions should be brought (the evidence is certainly strong enough to convict Downie, at least) and that only when the trials (if any) are concluded should we take this sort of serious action (ie; if guilt is obvious, but the (or a) defendent gets off because of a loaded jury or something). Though if we can pass a motion of censure, we should do that immediately.