Happy Chanukah!

[anvi]

I post this as a person who was raised Catholic, but am no longer Catholic and no longer Christian or an adherent of any religion (though I do hold a doctoral degree in Religious Studies, but I specialize in Indian and Chinese traditions).  So, my biases, if I have them, are rooted in that background.

I hardly begrudge Christians the right to carry out missionary activity.  I think that devotees of all religious traditions have a right to tell others about their faith and even attempt to persuade others of their beliefs.  When one talks of condemnation, however, one is talking about judgment, and insofar as I ever had any understanding of Christianity, judging is God's job and God's job alone; human beings are not equipped to judge or condemn others, and indeed, they are prohibited by Christ from doing so ("Judge not, and you will not be judged.  Condemn not, and you will not be condemned.  Forgive and you will be forgiven.")  Certainly, Christians are enjoined to spread the gospel, but beyond that, they are enjoined to love others as God loves all.

It would be exceedingly good if this was all there was to the matter.  But, historically, this has not been the case.  Christians have taken the directive to make disciples of all nations, when they came to political power, to colonize, coerce, and covert on pain of death, exile and disenfranchisenemt.  The long and torturous history of this heritage in Europe was precisely what led the Founders of the United States, many of whom were undoubtedly sincere and devoted Christians, to ensure that the state would not be an instrument of religious conversion on behalf of any denomination, and this was done precisely to protect the religious beliefs of all.  That means that the United States is supposed to be a pluralistic society.  I always get the feeling that American Christians who take their commission to convert others seriously are at pains to live in a pluralistic society, many seem fundamentally unhappy that there are people living in the same society who do not share their religious beliefs.  Why do I get this feeling?

Because this thread started with Happy Chanukah wishes and turned into a thread about Christian missionary activity.  Why did that have to happen? 

[anvi]

Oh well, I realize that I am engaging in a fruitless discussion here.  But, just for the record

>You can NOT use “do not judge” to nullify acknowledgment that “the wages of sin are death”…NOR >can you use “do not judge” to nullify acknowledgment of that Christ is the only path to salvation…>NOR can you use “do not judge” to nullify any other knowledge the scripture provides.
>
J>esus did NOT say, “Do not judge…therefore, forget everything I’ve taught you.”
>
>What Jesus actually said was, Mat 7:1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way >you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
>
>Obviously, when I recited the passages which teach the necessity of faith in Christ, I also applied >those very same verses to myself.  So, where is the hypocrisy in that?

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Well, if we want to be so exact about it, the Greek for Matthew 7:1 is (I hope the font comes through correctly): mh krinete ina mh kriqhte, so the formulation is more conjunctive (and) than disjunctive (or, in your translation), so the verse should be rendered, "don't judge and you won't be judged" or "don't judge (in order) that you are not judged.  Now, you are right about 7:2 telling the believer that the standards that they used on others will be used upon them.  But then, 7:3-4 says " ti de blepeiV to karfoV to en tw ofqalmw tou adelfou sou thn de en tw sw ofqalmw dokon ou katanoeiV.  h pwV ereiV tw adelfw sou afeV ekbalw to karfoV apo tou ofqalmou sou kai idou h dokoV en tw ofqalmw sou.  upokrita ekbale prwton thn dokon ek tou ofqalmou sou kai tote diableyeiV ekbalein to karfoV ek tou ofqalmou tou adelfou sou."  (Why do you see the splinter that is in your brother's eye and not notice the beam in your own?  Or how will you tell your brother: "let me take the splinter out of your eye," and look, the beam is in your own eye.  Hypocrite!  First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the beam from your brother's eye.)  The passage, in its entirety, seems to be warning the believer they they should refrain from judging others if the enormity of their own sins prevents them from understanding others well enough to make an appropriate judgement.  This is why, it seems to me, that God is the only being capable of judging, precisely because God is not stained by sin.  When it comes to judgment, the passage in Matthew seems to be saying that the rest of us sinners, and we are all surely sinners whether we are believers or not, are in a pretty precarious position with regard to judging others.

I never suggested that Jesus told his followers that a consequence of his admonishment of them not to judge others constituted a recommendation that they "forget everything" they were taught, as you imply.  Jesus clearly wanted his followers to stringently keep to what he understood to be God's will.  But refraining from unjust judgments looks to me like it was an important part of God's will for people.  I also did not accuse you of hypocrisy.  My position is that you seem to be using the passage in Matthew as license to judge others given the fact that you are a believer, whereas the passage in Matthew seems to be admonishing believers to make their own atonements before they denounce others.   And that brings me to my next point:      

>>I always get the feeling that American Christians who take their commission to convert others >>seriously are at pains to live in a pluralistic society, many seem fundamentally unhappy that there >>are people living in the same society who do not share their religious beliefs.  Why do I get this >>feeling?
>Because you’re “judging” all evangelicals by the actions of a few tyrants.
 
No, it's not a judgment; it's an observation.  I did not praise or condemn some Christians for feeling unhappy about living in a pluralistic society, but it seems obvious that many are.  I did not say "all Evangelicals," I said "American Christians who take their commission to convert others seriously," so this obviously does not include all evangelicals and certainly not all Christians.  If they are unhappy with pluralistic society, than that's the way they feel.  And "a few tyrants?"  It wasn't a few, and here is where reading a few books about history could come in handy.

Anyway, it seems to me that what gets to people on this forum is not your wish to engage issues based on your faith or your reliance on the Bible.  I think what gets their ire is that, in your hands, the Gospel is no longer "good news," it's just a threat that "the wages of sin is death" where sin constitutes not being a Christian, and specifically not being a Christian of your particular interpetive persuasion.  The Christian message didn't just present itself to the world, it was brought to the world by people, and they each had and have their own way of presenting the message.  So, despite your protestation that you want religious discussions to be about the Bible and not about you, the fact of the matter is that the presentation is about you.  It's in the way you place the Gospel before your listeners.  The God you talk about doesn't seem to love the world very much, He seems to be eager to finger-point, condemn and send unbelivers into hellfire as soon as possible instead of send His only Son to instruct, heal, comfort, forgive, certainly correct them when necessary, and ultimately die for everyone as an act of reconciling human beings to God.  And, again this is an observation, the reactions to you on this forum seem to indicate that this style of presentation isn't very effective.  Now, maybe you just enjoy provoking people's ire and citing scripture in the condemnation of unbelievers, and if this is the case, then by all means keep doing it.  I'm a pluralist, so if that is in your judgment the most virtuous way of going about these discussions, then do so

Anyway, like I said, I know this is a fruitless attempt at a dialogue.  But, that's alright.