Are you happy Hillary was denied the presidency because of her war vote?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

She probably would've won without that. But it screwed her over, as did her refusal to apologize.

Actions have consequences. Very satisying.

[Robespierre's Jaw]

Yes, because Senator Clinton's vote on the War in Iraq really had such an affect on those who voted in the 2008 Democratic primaries that she lost the nomination. I'm not denying that it contributed to her defeat, but it was nothing compared to numerous other factors, such as Obama's organization, etc which helped Senator Clinton lose the nomination Senator Obama.

[Beet]

Yes, because Senator Clinton's vote on the War in Iraq really had such an affect on those who voted in the 2008 Democratic primaries that she lost the nomination. I'm not denying that it contributed to her defeat, but it was nothing compared to numerous other factors, such as Obama's organization, etc which helped Senator Clinton lose the nomination Senator Obama.

^^^^

Exactly. I would wager to say her stand gained her some votes as well from more hawkish Dems, of which there are more than BRTD would like to admit. If a Democratic President had started the Iraq war, a good portion of the party would have rallied behind him and a good portion of pro war Republicans would have become anti war.

[Eraserhead]

She probably would've won without that. But it screwed her over, as did her refusal to apologize.

Actions have consequences. Very satisying.

I'm not sure if it was the deciding factor or not but it's certainly nice to think that could have been. Her arrogance regarding her position on that all-important issue was simply mind-blowing.

[Iosif]

I wish Obama had picked Kerry over her for State.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I wish Obama had picked Kerry over her for State.

I would prefer Kerry, but at least she's out of the Senate now and is basically Obama's lapdog.

[Iosif]

I wish Obama had picked Kerry over her for State.

I would prefer Kerry, but at least she's out of the Senate now and is basically Obama's lapdog.

I'd prefer if she didn't have any influence in the cabinet to be honest, especially foreign affairs.

A wounded senator would've suited me better.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yes, because Senator Clinton's vote on the War in Iraq really had such an affect on those who voted in the 2008 Democratic primaries that she lost the nomination. I'm not denying that it contributed to her defeat, but it was nothing compared to numerous other factors, such as Obama's organization, etc which helped Senator Clinton lose the nomination Senator Obama.

^^^^

Exactly. I would wager to say her stand gained her some votes as well from more hawkish Dems, of which there are more than BRTD would like to admit.

I think the Joe Lieberman's campaign in 2004 showed how many there were. And that was 2004, not 2008. There is simply no way it gained her more votes than it lost.

If a Democratic President had started the Iraq war, a good portion of the party would have rallied behind him and a good portion of pro war Republicans would have become anti war.

And that's relevant because...?

[Beet]

Yes, because Senator Clinton's vote on the War in Iraq really had such an affect on those who voted in the 2008 Democratic primaries that she lost the nomination. I'm not denying that it contributed to her defeat, but it was nothing compared to numerous other factors, such as Obama's organization, etc which helped Senator Clinton lose the nomination Senator Obama.

^^^^

Exactly. I would wager to say her stand gained her some votes as well from more hawkish Dems, of which there are more than BRTD would like to admit.

I think the Joe Lieberman's campaign in 2004 showed how many there were. And that was 2004, not 2008. There is simply no way it gained her more votes than it lost.

Joe Lieberman was running as a pro- war candidate not just a hawkish candidate. You had the top two vote getters with 68% of the vote in the Iowa caucus who voted for the war in Iraq and had not apologized for it, and another 11% went to a guy who basically organized the pro- authorization Dems in the House.

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And that's relevant because...?
[/quote]

The political science literature tells us that partisans sometimes make their decisions based on what famous people whom they like say. For example, prior to the bombing halt in 1967 most Americans were against a bombing halt. But after it was announced, most Americans shifted to favor it. The same goes with partisans of one party. Had a Democratic President launched the war, and all the Democratic politicians were saying the war was good, and all the Republican politicians were saying it was bad, most Democrats probably would have ended up favoring the war, and most Republicans opposing it.

In other words, a lot of the polling vis-a-vis the war reflected partisanship rather than innate inclinations. No party has a monopoly on isolationist, anti- war tendencies, or internationalist tendencies.

[Nixon in '80]

If a Democratic President had started the Iraq war, a good portion of the party would have rallied behind him and a good portion of pro war Republicans would have become anti war.

And that's relevant because...?

The political science literature tells us that partisans sometimes make their decisions based on what famous people whom they like say. For example, prior to the bombing halt in 1967 most Americans were against a bombing halt. But after it was announced, most Americans shifted to favor it. The same goes with partisans of one party. Had a Democratic President launched the war, and all the Democratic politicians were saying the war was good, and all the Republican politicians were saying it was bad, most Democrats probably would have ended up favoring the war, and most Republicans opposing it.

In other words, a lot of the polling vis-a-vis the war reflected partisanship rather than innate inclinations. No party has a monopoly on isolationist, anti- war tendencies, or internationalist tendencies.

Case in point: Kosovo

I'm not saying Kosovo and Iraq are very similar, they are not... but I believe the respective reactions of the partisans from both sides effectively prove Beet's point.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That's funny, because Supersoulty frequently blasts me for my anti-Kosovo War and Kosovo independence arguments.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

No, I'm just happy she was denied the Presidency.

[Nixon in '80]

That's funny, because Supersoulty frequently blasts me for my anti-Kosovo War and Kosovo independence arguments.

I commend you for your consistent non-interventionism... but you cannot deny that most Democrats, once the operation started, supported it, while a higher percentage of Republicans criticized it.

[Scam of God]

No, I'm just happy she was denied the Presidency.

[defe07]

We all remember when the downfall of Hillary's securing the nomination came, right? Not only her vote for the War in Iraq was critical, she could've been the nominee if it weren't for her stand on drvier's licenses for illegal immigrants.

[© tweed]

oftentimes the problem with BRTD polls is that he makes one clause dependent on another when it really shouldn't be, making it very difficult me to come down on either side of the manufactured dichotomy.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No, I'm just happy she was denied the Presidency.

Exactly

[Kane]

No, I just liked Obama better.