Spanish abandon Christianity

[Guillermo]

Spain is turning into France. We are hit and we withdraw soldiers, now we are turning our backs on our most important institution. The socialists are cutting funding to the Church and giving it to mosques!!! I need to leave this country fast.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=ADZTT5Y5FGQUJQFIQMGSM5OAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/09/25/wspain25.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/09/25/ixportal.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=87503

[Tory]

The British government and the Anglican Church are completely intertwined, yet that hasn't stopped secularisation one bit in my opinion.

[Nation]

Not good news.

[Jens]

About time Spain became a bit more secular.

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And it is very much about time that the teaching of religion becames separated from the catholic church

[Bono]

How is this a problem?
Of course, I may be biased since as a former Roman Catholic I do not hold great simpathy towards the Roman Catholic Church.

[Bono]

How is this a problem?
Of course, I may be biased since as a former Roman Catholic I do not hold great simpathy towards the Roman Catholic Church.

[Tory]

How is this a problem?
Of course, I may be biased since as a former Roman Catholic I do not hold great simpathy towards the Roman Catholic Church.

Why did you leave, if you don't mind my asking? I'm not a Catholic, by the way, so I'm not trying to grill you or anything.

[Bono]

How is this a problem?
Of course, I may be biased since as a former Roman Catholic I do not hold great simpathy towards the Roman Catholic Church.

Why did you leave, if you don't mind my asking? I'm not a Catholic, by the way, so I'm not trying to grill you or anything.

I left because of disagreement over major doctrinal issues, and because I became  a calvinist.
And I don't like the Churche's arrogant attitude.

[Brambila]

Don't let them! Kick the socialists out! Defend Spain as the Spanish have defended themselves from Byzantines, Muslims, French, and Fascists! The socialists have to learn that Spain IS a Catholic country, NOT a secular one.

[Jens]

Don't let them! Kick the socialists out! Defend Spain as the Spanish have defended themselves from Byzantines, Muslims, French, and Fascists! The socialists have to learn that Spain IS a Catholic country, NOT a secular one.

You do know that the fellows who defended themself against the Muslims, French and Byzantines where not Catholics, but were Arian Christians. Things change.

[Brambila]

Don't let them! Kick the socialists out! Defend Spain as the Spanish have defended themselves from Byzantines, Muslims, French, and Fascists! The socialists have to learn that Spain IS a Catholic country, NOT a secular one.

You do know that the fellows who defended themself against the Muslims, French and Byzantines where not Catholics, but were Arian Christians. Things change.

And what is your history book? I cannot think of any Arian Christians. Queen Isabella who kicked the Muslims out was Catholic; the peasents who kicked the French out when Napoleon invaded were Catholic; many of the ones who kicked the Facists out were communist, but nonetheless Catholic. It might be possible that the Spanish during the Arian heresy were Arian, but that really ended after the council of Nicea.

[Bono]

Don't let them! Kick the socialists out! Defend Spain as the Spanish have defended themselves from Byzantines, Muslims, French, and Fascists! The socialists have to learn that Spain IS a Catholic country, NOT a secular one.

You do know that the fellows who defended themself against the Muslims, French and Byzantines where not Catholics, but were Arian Christians. Things change.

; the peasents who kicked the French out when Napoleon invaded were Catholic;

You mean the Anglo-Portuguese army?

Never mind him Jens, he is the same person who thinks Portugal was governed by an atheist dictatorship in the early 20th century.

[Jens]

Don't let them! Kick the socialists out! Defend Spain as the Spanish have defended themselves from Byzantines, Muslims, French, and Fascists! The socialists have to learn that Spain IS a Catholic country, NOT a secular one.

You do know that the fellows who defended themself against the Muslims, French and Byzantines where not Catholics, but were Arian Christians. Things change.

And what is your history book? I cannot think of any Arian Christians. Queen Isabella who kicked the Muslims out was Catholic; the peasents who kicked the French out when Napoleon invaded were Catholic; many of the ones who kicked the Facists out were communist, but nonetheless Catholic. It might be possible that the Spanish during the Arian heresy were Arian, but that really ended after the council of Nicea.

The Visigoths who rules the majority of the Iberian Peninsula from 466 to 711 where throughout the majority of their regime Arians. It was only during the reign of King Reccared (586-601) that major convertions to Catholisme occured. The Visigoths fought against the Franks on several occations and lost Aquatany in 507. That was partly a religious feud since the Franks were Catolics and the Visigoths Arians. Throughout the Visigoth regime and also the latter Navarran, Castillian and Aragonian (not to mention León and Asturia) where religiosly quite diverse countries.
Isabella and Ferdinand did not "kick out" the Muslims. They conquered Granada at a time where the country where bankrupt and could no longer pay tribute to Castillia. In millitary terms Granada were an easy pick from around 1260-1300 but it was a much better money machine for the Castillian monachs. It was Isabellas and Ferdinands great great grandchild Philip III who "kicked out" the Moors around 1610.

[Brambila]

Don't let them! Kick the socialists out! Defend Spain as the Spanish have defended themselves from Byzantines, Muslims, French, and Fascists! The socialists have to learn that Spain IS a Catholic country, NOT a secular one.

You do know that the fellows who defended themself against the Muslims, French and Byzantines where not Catholics, but were Arian Christians. Things change.

; the peasents who kicked the French out when Napoleon invaded were Catholic;

You mean the Anglo-Portuguese army?

Never mind him, he is the same person who thinks Portugal was governed by an atheist dictatorship in the early 20th century.

Bono, you immature fool, although I thought that I admitted my mistake. My point was that Portugal was anti-Catholic in the beginning of the 20th century. It can be argued that a secularist state is not much different from an atheist one.

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(source)

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As a matter of fact, Pope Pius X in 1911 after the Republic was established released a statement against Portugal for their persecution of Catholics:

1. You are already, We think, well aware, Venerable Brethren, of the incredible series of excesses and crimes which has been enacted in Portugal for the oppression of the Church. For who does not know that, when the Republican form of Government was adopted in that country, there immediately began to be promulgated measures breathing the most implacable hatred of the Catholic religion? We have seen religious communities evicted from their homes, and most of them driven beyond the Portuguese frontiers. We have seen, arising out of an obstinate determination to secularize every civil organization and to leave no trace of religion in the acts of common life, the deletion of the feast days of the Church from the number of public festivals, the abolition of religious oaths, the hasty establishment of the law of divorce and religious instruction banished from the public schools. And then, to pass over in silence other enormities which would take too long to enumerate, the Bishops have been savagely attacked, and two of the most prominent of them, the Bishops of Oporto and Beia, men who are illustrious by the integrity of their lives and by their great services to their country and the Church, have been driven out of their sees and stripped of their honors. Source

The constitution secularized the state by disestablishing the church, forbidding religious instruction in the public schools, and rohibiting the military from taking part in religious observances
Source

The concordat of 1886 regulated many of the questions in dispute with the State and Hintze Ribeiro's decree of 1896 authorized the existence of religious orders under certain conditions. The prospect of better conditions for the Church vanished, however, with the coming of the Revolution in 1910, which drove the Braganza dynasty from the throne, and delivered Portugal into the hands of the Radicals, whose hostility to the Catholic religion was made evident by the adverse course of the Provisional Government set up by the Revolutionists.

A provisional government, republican in form, was proclaimed, with Theophilus Braga, a native of the Azores, as President. He immediately set to work to carry out the radical measures of the republican programme, the first of which was the summary and violent expulsion of the religious congregations, the seizure of their property by the State, the abolition of the Senate and all hereditary privileges and titles. The separation of the Church and State was also arbitrarily decreed by the provisional government.

On 20 April, 1911, a second decree, in 196 articles, was promulgated, regulating in detail the previously sweeping enactments. Article 38 of this decree prohibits any minister of religion, under the penalties of article 137 of the Criminal Code and the loss of the material benefits (pensions) of the State, from criticizing "in the exercise of his ministry and on the occasion of any act of worship, in sermons or in public writings, the public authority or any of its acts, or the form of the government or the laws of the Republic, or denying or calling into question the rights of the State embodied in this decree or in other legislation relative to the Churches". Chapter iv devotes twenty-seven articles to the ownership and administration of church buildings and property. Churches, chapels, lands, and chattels, hitherto applied to the public worship of the Catholic religion are declared property of the State, unless bona fide ownership by some private individual or corporation can be proved. Chapter v, in twenty-four articles, provides for boards of laymen (after the manner of the French Law of Associations) to take charge of and administer the temporalities needed for Catholic worship. This arrangement is, however, revocable at the pleasure of the grantor (the State). Buildings intended for religious purposes, but not yet utilized, whether in course of construction or completed; buildings which for a year have not been used for religious purposes and such as by 31 December, 1912, shall have no board of laymen to administer them, shall be taken by the State for some social purpose. Only Portuguese citizens who have made their theological studies in Portugal may officiate. Chapter vi deals with the question of pensions for the ministers of the Catholic religion, and permits them to marry. Articles 175, chapter vii, stipulates that "ministers of religion enjoy no privileges and are authorized to correspond officially by mail with the public authorities only, and not with one another.

source

Besides this, you are extremely foolish for judging me based on that. You can't even prove what I said is wrong.

[Jens]

Don't let them! Kick the socialists out! Defend Spain as the Spanish have defended themselves from Byzantines, Muslims, French, and Fascists! The socialists have to learn that Spain IS a Catholic country, NOT a secular one.

You do know that the fellows who defended themself against the Muslims, French and Byzantines where not Catholics, but were Arian Christians. Things change.

; the peasents who kicked the French out when Napoleon invaded were Catholic;

You mean the Anglo-Portuguese army?

Never mind him Jens, he is the same person who thinks Portugal was governed by an atheist dictatorship in the early 20th century.

I read that I know about the "secular" republic (caotic is more accurate) from 1910 to 1926. And the good old Estado Novo afterwards. Salazar was quite a caracter.
(I'm writing a thesis about nationalism in Timor Leste and have earlier on written quite a lot about the wars of independence in Angola and Mozambique, so modern Portuguese history is very well known to me (Revolução dos Cravos Vermelhos )

[Brambila]

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You havn't explained how the Spanish who kicked out the Muslims, French, Byzantines, and facists were Arians. Yes, as I said, during the time of the Byzantines the Visigoths did establish an Arian Kingdom (not all Visigoths were following the heresy, but they were Arian state for a few centuries). They were, nonetheless, Catholic when the Muslims invaded Spain in the 8th century.

Religion was the most persistent source of friction between the Roman Catholic Hispano-Romans and their Arian Visigoth overlords, whom they considered heretical. At times this tension invited open rebellion, and restive factions within the Visigothic aristocracy exploited it to weaken the monarchy. In 589 Recared, a Visigoth ruler, renounced his Arianism before the Council of Bishops at Toledo and accepted Catholicism, thus assuring an alliance between the Visigothic monarchy and the Hispano-Romans. This alliance would not mark the last time in Spanish history that political unity would be sought through religious unity.

Court ceremonials--from Constantinople--that proclaimed the imperial sovereignty and unity of the Visigothic state were introduced at Toledo. Still, civil war, royal assassinations, and usurpation were commonplace, and warlords and great landholders assumed wide discretionary powers. Bloody family feuds went unchecked. The Visigoths had acquired and cultivated the apparatus of the Roman state, but not the ability to make it operate to their advantage. In the absence of a well-defined hereditary system of succession to the throne, rival factions encouraged foreign intervention by the Greeks, the Franks, and, finally, the Muslims in internal disputes and in royal elections.

http://countrystudies.us/spain/4.htm

[Jens]

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You havn't explained how the Spanish who kicked out the Muslims, French, Byzantines, and facists were Arians. Yes, as I said, during the time of the Byzantines the Visigoths did establish an Arian Kingdom (not all Visigoths were following the heresy, but they were Arian state for a few centuries). They were, nonetheless, Catholic when the Muslims invaded Spain in the 8th century.

Religion was the most persistent source of friction between the Roman Catholic Hispano-Romans and their Arian Visigoth overlords, whom they considered heretical. At times this tension invited open rebellion, and restive factions within the Visigothic aristocracy exploited it to weaken the monarchy. In 589 Recared, a Visigoth ruler, renounced his Arianism before the Council of Bishops at Toledo and accepted Catholicism, thus assuring an alliance between the Visigothic monarchy and the Hispano-Romans. This alliance would not mark the last time in Spanish history that political unity would be sought through religious unity.

Court ceremonials--from Constantinople--that proclaimed the imperial sovereignty and unity of the Visigothic state were introduced at Toledo. Still, civil war, royal assassinations, and usurpation were commonplace, and warlords and great landholders assumed wide discretionary powers. Bloody family feuds went unchecked. The Visigoths had acquired and cultivated the apparatus of the Roman state, but not the ability to make it operate to their advantage. In the absence of a well-defined hereditary system of succession to the throne, rival factions encouraged foreign intervention by the Greeks, the Franks, and, finally, the Muslims in internal disputes and in royal elections.

http://countrystudies.us/spain/4.htm

Read what I wrote. I never claimed that any Arians was involved in fightings against the Facists. To the best of my knowledge Arianism doesn't have support among any segment of any population in any state or country (but you can never be sure that there still is some Arians around). Well the Muslims was a mistake from my side. Remembered a hundred years wrong when writing from the top of my head. (It's rather late here in Europe).
But a point that I would like to state is that even though the king and nobles became Catholics around 600 AD, does not mean that the common Visigoth nor Lusitanian also converted. It is impossible to check in Spain because of the lack of sources but I know from other areas of Europe where earlier religions trived for centuries after the country officially became Christian

[opebo]

Good for them.  It may not be as bad as Islam, but they're much better off without Catholicism.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It is my firm conviction that one reason why the US has such a high proportion (for a developed country) of its people being devoutly religious is the fact that we largely keep church and state seperate.

[Angel of Death]

Spain is turning into France. We are hit and we withdraw soldiers, now we are turning our backs on our most important institution. The socialists are cutting funding to the Church and giving it to mosques!!! I need to leave this country fast.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=ADZTT5Y5FGQUJQFIQMGSM5OAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/09/25/wspain25.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/09/25/ixportal.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=87503

GOOD! They never answered for Franco and now it's PAYBACK TIME!

[A18]

Good for them.  It may not be as bad as Islam, but they're much better off without Catholicism.

Anti-Christian bigotry. Not that I care, it's just pathetic.

LOL. Better off without Catholicism...

[Brambila]

It is my firm conviction that one reason why the US has such a high proportion (for a developed country) of its people being devoutly religious is the fact that we largely keep church and state seperate.

The US really is only religious among Protestants, not really Catholics. Protestants are are a libertarian religion, while Catholics believe in government involvement and distributivism. Catholics don't believe in sepraration of Church and state because of our belief that Christ created a head of the Catholic faith (the Pope). My point in saying this is that the reason WHY Spain is currently one of the more Catholic nations in Europe (that is, a higher rate of church attendance, I believe it's at 35%-40% right now) is because the church is involved. Nations like France and Germany have much lower attendance rates for Catholics because they are such a huge secularist state. Italy, for instance, has a lot of intervention from the Church. Because of that, the attendance rate is quite high. Malta is another nation with high Church influence, and they have a very high attendance rate.

[opebo]

Good for them.  It may not be as bad as Islam, but they're much better off without Catholicism.

Anti-Christian bigotry. Not that I care, it's just pathetic.

LOL. Better off without Catholicism...

Its not bigotry - I just disagree with religion like I disagree with some ideologies.  Its like disliking/fearing communists (only of course religion is more dangerous).

[Brambila]

Good for them.  It may not be as bad as Islam, but they're much better off without Catholicism.

Anti-Christian bigotry. Not that I care, it's just pathetic.

LOL. Better off without Catholicism...

Its not bigotry - I just disagree with religion like I disagree with some ideologies.  Its like disliking/fearing communists (only of course religion is more dangerous).

Why do you say that? Communism practically is a religion.

[opebo]

Good for them.  It may not be as bad as Islam, but they're much better off without Catholicism.

Anti-Christian bigotry. Not that I care, it's just pathetic.

LOL. Better off without Catholicism...

Its not bigotry - I just disagree with religion like I disagree with some ideologies.  Its like disliking/fearing communists (only of course religion is more dangerous).

Why do you say that? Communism practically is a religion.

I disagree with communists (and leftists in general), but I understand how their minds work - they seem to use reason.  Religion I just don't get at all.