Gays in the Military

[Brambila]

Fixed

[John Dibble]

"...even if you consider homosexuality immoral, that doesn't mean practicing homosexuals can't be overall moral people..."

That is an inconsistency, a logical flaw. But before I go on, let me ask: What is your definition of immoral people, or living an immoral lifestyle.

Well, morality for anyone isn't really that clear cut. Also, it's not inconsistant - a person may be immoral in one respect but moral in many others, nobody is perfect after all. The opposite also applies - a muderous tyrant who commits crimes against humanity on a daily basis could be faithful to his wife(which I think we both agree is moral). So, overall a person could have their flaws, but be for the most part a moral individual, and a person could have one moral strong point and still be an immoral individual. There are a few things that make people overall moral to me, one is that someone doesn't harm others for unjust reasons and another is not abusing any powers or priviliges that they are given. In the military, you are given training, gaining power and knowledge to fight, kill, and weaken the enemy - this power can be abused like any other(a certain prison incident in Iraq would be an example, even if you might consider it a small abuse). Honesty is also important - at least with those that you should be honest with(lying to your spouse is wrong, lying to an enemy is fine). I don't see practicing homosexuality as immoral, unless of course there someone is cheating on their monogamous partner - pretty much the same rules I would apply to heterosexual relationships.

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I'm assuming you mean in the military for the first part of the question - guess I'd have three locker rooms: men, women, and unisex. Leave it up to individuals to choose. The locker room doesn't affect the battle field as far as I'm concerned - the last thing you'd be thinking of when bullets are flying at you is about someone else's goodies.

As for colleges and high schools - colleges I would be fine with, everyone there is an adult(even if they don't necessarily act like it all the time), but you could have barriers for changing clothes and whatnot. Leave it to the individual colleges(is there a law against this anyways?). High schools would be a no(seriously, freshmen there can't even restrain themselves from laughing at the word 'penis'), and I'd still have barriers.

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Ok, first off, they won't feel guilt and depression over it - that's just silly. If they were you, maybe, but not everyone thinks the way you do. Prostitution was rampant among the troops in Vietnam and Korea, and was more likely a comfort to them than anything else. They were probably more concerned with how to avoid getting shot than with the moral problems of prostitution. EDIT - also, is it really an emotional lie if you do it solely for physical pleasure(as is usually the case).

[Brambila]

John, I didn't ask you what your definition of a moral was, I asked what your definition of an immoral lifestyle was. If you say that a guy who commits murderous crimes and yet is nice to his wife, you obviously don't understand what being immoral is all about. Are you living an immoral lifestyle if you murder people but are nice to your wife? No, because you're not living in murdering people. Homosexuals, however, are literally living an immoral lifestyle- they are having relations within their personal lives. An immoral lifestyle isn't just committing a single immoral action, but it is living in that iniquity. Gays are living in the iniquity of homosexuality, and therefore they don't live the military's requirement of moral stature. You are correct in stating that for instance honesty is important. However, it is imperative that one takes a phenomenological approach in discussing such matters, meaning, we must predict what could open up if we allow practicing and open homosexuals into the military. Firstly 21% of homosexuals suffer from physical abuse from their partners, compared to less than 8% of heterosexual men (1). This can be a huge threat within the military, as we have seen in the case of the Iraqi abuses. I would not be surprised if many of the US soldiers who committed those crimes were homosexuals. In a similar study of intimate violence within relationships, 15.4% of homosexual men have intimate violence in their relationship, compared to .05% of heterosexual married men (2). These statistics open up the possibility of serious crimes in the military. Why should we take this risk? Just “fire” then when they commit a crime?
 
What must be answered is the question of relativity. If you're a subjectivist, then we have another debate to start. But if you, like me, are an objectivist, then we can continue this discussion without touching the issue of morality too much.

Three locker rooms doesn’t solve the problem. Homosexuals will still be distracted, or distract others. If they go into the men’s shower room, they’ll be distracted. If they go into the unisex shower room, that would simply turn into a gay bathhouse. Finally, if they go into the women’s shower room, they will distract the women. Yes, this will effect the battlefield. Here’s a scenario: if a sergeant is leading his chalk in Baghdad and recently broke up with a member of his chalk, a private, don’t you think that private would have a difficult time obeying commands? This is exactly the reason why we separate women from men in the military.

” Leave it to the individual colleges(is there a law against this anyways?).

I’m asking you personally, none of this libertarianism . Do you think it’s immoral or can cause problems if men and women shower together? I think it can. Even post-adolescent people are attracted to the opposite sex (unless you’re gay); at least I hope most of them are! It would be odd if suddenly after the age of 24 men became asexual.

Without getting too much into the military prostitution debate, we must also understand that prostitution doesn’t just negatively affect the soldier, but also the prostitute. STDs are very high, and even condoms don’t defend against thousands of STDs out there. In addition, prostitution leads to children becoming prostitutes, and in Vietnam child prostitution was a huge problem. Today in Southeast Asia it’s a tremendous problem, especially in Thailand, where boys as young as 8 sell themselves as prostitutes.





1)   "Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence", U.S. Department of Justice: Office of Justice Programs (30)
2)   "Intimate Partner Violence," Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report (11)

[opebo]

John, I didn't ask you what your definition of a moral was, I asked what your definition of an immoral lifestyle was. If you say that a guy who commits murderous crimes and yet is nice to his wife, you obviously don't understand what being immoral is all about. Are you living an immoral lifestyle if you murder people but are nice to your wife? No, because you're not living in murdering people. Homosexuals, however, are literally living an immoral lifestyle- they are having relations within their personal lives. An immoral lifestyle isn't just committing a single immoral action, but it is living in that iniquity. Gays are living in the iniquity of homosexuality, and therefore they don't live the military's requirement of moral stature. You are correct in stating that for instance honesty is important. However, it is imperative that one takes a phenomenological approach in discussing such matters, meaning, we must predict what could open up if we allow practicing and open homosexuals into the military. Firstly 21% of homosexuals suffer from physical abuse from their partners, compared to less than 8% of heterosexual men (1). This can be a huge threat within the military, as we have seen in the case of the Iraqi abuses. I would not be surprised if many of the US soldiers who committed those crimes were homosexuals. In a similar study of intimate violence within relationships, 15.4% of homosexual men have intimate violence in their relationship, compared to .05% of heterosexual married men (2). These statistics open up the possibility of serious crimes in the military. Why should we take this risk? Just “fire” then when they commit a crime?
 
What must be answered is the question of relativity. If you're a subjectivist, then we have another debate to start. But if you, like me, are an objectivist, then we can continue this discussion without touching the issue of morality too much.

Three locker rooms doesn’t solve the problem. Homosexuals will still be distracted, or distract others. If they go into the men’s shower room, they’ll be distracted. If they go into the unisex shower room, that would simply turn into a gay bathhouse. Finally, if they go into the women’s shower room, they will distract the women. Yes, this will effect the battlefield. Here’s a scenario: if a sergeant is leading his chalk in Baghdad and recently broke up with a member of his chalk, a private, don’t you think that private would have a difficult time obeying commands? This is exactly the reason why we separate women from men in the military.

” Leave it to the individual colleges(is there a law against this anyways?).

I’m asking you personally, none of this libertarianism . Do you think it’s immoral or can cause problems if men and women shower together? I think it can. Even post-adolescent people are attracted to the opposite sex (unless you’re gay); at least I hope most of them are! It would be odd if suddenly after the age of 24 men became asexual.

Without getting too much into the military prostitution debate, we must also understand that prostitution doesn’t just negatively affect the soldier, but also the prostitute. STDs are very high, and even condoms don’t defend against thousands of STDs out there. In addition, prostitution leads to children becoming prostitutes, and in Vietnam child prostitution was a huge problem. Today in Southeast Asia it’s a tremendous problem, especially in Thailand, where boys as young as 8 sell themselves as prostitutes.





1)   "Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence", U.S. Department of Justice: Office of Justice Programs (30)
2)   "Intimate Partner Violence," Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report (11)

There's no such thing as an 'immoral lifestyle'.

And btw, you're completely wrong in your claims about Thailand - prostitution is a normal and accepted thing there, which is one reason it is such a humane and civilized place.  However all are over 18, and in fact this is fairly vigorously policed.  Any exceptions would have to be very much underground, and 'on the run', as in any country.  No one interferes in such totally private, voluntary and mutually beneficial transactions.

[John Dibble]

Oh, an 'immoral lifestyle'. Well, that's somewhat of a difficult question too - there is no one set immoral lifestyle. You already know I don't think homosexuality is immoral, so that's out. An immoral lifestlye to me is one in which the one living it has no regard for the rights of his fellow human beings. If you don't respect the rights of others, your rights are taken away - this is and always has been the basis of any good justice system. Murder someone and you get locked away or put to death. It is also immoral not to live up to important promises you make - such as being faithful to your partner, but if your partner approves of you having sex with others I don't think it's immoral necessarily, just unhealthy. To me just because a decision is unhealthy or dumb does not make it immoral by default - though it is immoral to run away from the consequences of your stupid or unhealthy actions, or to force others to bear the weight of those consequences. Also it's immoral to take the labor of others as you. Of course, some immoral acts surpass others, like murder is worse than cheating on a test. As I said before, nobody is perfect, even the best of us do immoral things sometimes, but it is the combined weight of your actions that determine what kind of person you are.

As far as locker rooms go, as I said, I don't really care too terribly about distractions in the locker room - leave it at two, ultimately you can't solve every problem. As far as your example, I think it already isn't allowed for soldiers and their superiors to date, and if it isn't it shouldn't be.

As far as showers go, as I said, once again - I DON'T CARE. I probably wouldn't participate in showers like that(I don't think most people would either). I prefer to keep my parts covered around other people - don't care if they are male or female. Though I don't think such showers would be much different from nude beaches, lol.

As for prostitution, I think opebo covered it pretty well - keep it policed to make sure minors are kept out(much as the porn industry is). You could also further regulate it by ensuring that prostitutes have regular checks for STDs and patrons are always offered condoms(or required to use if the prostitute says so).

[Brambila]

Opebo, actually, child prostitution is a huge industry in Thailand. I have friends+relatives who often go or live there, and they always come back asking for prayers about the child prostitution industry in Bangkok. It's not policed there well at all. As a matter of fact, San Francisco has had a problem with illegal prostitution and historically has had some child prostitution. In the 1960s, if I get the dates correctly, there was a huge child prostitution bust in San Francisco in the Castro district (which at that time was about half gay/half italian families, which explains where the children came from). Now we're not talking as bad as in Thailand with 8-year-olds, but there were plenty of teenagers. Even today, I know of a girl who is a prostitute and only 16 from a Socialogist I met who does studies on these kinds of activities.

John Dibble, I have a simple question I need you to answer before we can move on. At this current state, you havn't given me a clear answer: What is an example of an immoral lifestyle? If you can't answer that, then explain what the US Army means by a person living in good moral standards?

As for locker rooms, they arn't the only issue about homosexuals beign in the military. My point is, homosexuals cause distractions, and this is merely one example of how close the bondness gets between teammembers. Soldiers do NOT need emotional distractions!

[John Dibble]

John Dibble, I have a simple question I need you to answer before we can move on. At this current state, you havn't given me a clear answer: What is an example of an immoral lifestyle? If you can't answer that, then explain what the US Army means by a person living in good moral standards?

Ok, easy enough, an example of an immoral lifestyle to me would be one that involves someone regularly cheating on their partner. When you enter a monogamous relationship with someone you form a bond of trust - it is immoral to break that trust. A person who regularly breaks that trust makes it part of their lifestyle, so their lifestlye is immoral. They can be forgiven if they stop doing the deed and feel honest guilt for their behavior, but not before that. A career thief or con-artist would also be living an immoral lifestlye. A hedonistic lifestlye is not necessarily an immoral one, but it is certainly not a healthy one.

As far as the army goes, I am not completely sure - have they ever court martialed anyone for cheating on their wife? I would personally hold the standard that they didn't abuse the power given to them by being in the military, which I have pointed out as part of what I consider moral. I'm sure the army does hold that standard.

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Unfortunately, you'll never get an army free of emotional distraction - even simple male friendship can be a distraction. Homosexuals are only about 3% of the population anyways, and their population in the army would probably be lower than that, so I doubt it would be much of a problem in reality.

[opebo]

Opebo, actually, child prostitution is a huge industry in Thailand. I have friends+relatives who often go or live there, and they always come back asking for prayers about the child prostitution industry in Bangkok. It's not policed there well at all. As a matter of fact, San Francisco has had a problem with illegal prostitution and historically has had some child prostitution. In the 1960s, if I get the dates correctly, there was a huge child prostitution bust in San Francisco in the Castro district (which at that time was about half gay/half italian families, which explains where the children came from). Now we're not talking as bad as in Thailand with 8-year-olds, but there were plenty of teenagers. Even today, I know of a girl who is a prostitute and only 16 from a Socialogist I met who does studies on these kinds of activities.

You're talking about something I know first-hand and intimately, and I can attest - there is no such thing as what you describe.  There is a vast industry with a great many ADULT WOMEN (and men) working in it - and one NEVER sees any underage women in any of the venues, bars, etc.  There is no possible way your friend could have seen such a thing.  If it does exsist it would be deep underground and not visible either to me or to any wandering puritans. 

Probably the explanation is that your friend is partially a liar, and partially deluded - many puritans, when they see a street full of venues for prostitution, staffed by asians (who are more petite than western women and therefore look younger), simply make the wild and absurd assumption that the women are underage and don't want to be there.  In fact the vast majority of women in the business are not only over 18, but most are over 25, and also a majority have had a child - the child is usually the primary economic motivator for wanting to make the huge incomes associated with this trade. 

I have known many of these women very well and even visited the rather posh homes they build back in their hometowns with the money they make - they are ecstatic to have found such an easy way to improve their lives!  Country girls of 25 or 30 making more than middle managers in return for rather easygoing sex acts with some reasonably polite elderly German or American men hardly constitutes a moral outrage. 

[Nym90]

I have some girls who are friends of mine and we have 100% platonic relationships, the same as if they were a man. I also have gay friends who view me entirely 100% nonsexually. I suppose you think they are lying, but I'm afraid you'd be wrong. I know them better than you, and more importantly, they know themselves better than you.

Your incredibly narrow-minded view of the way humans think and act is astonishing, Brambila. I do not have nearly the arrogance to assume that I would know the thoughts or motivations of someone I have never met.

[Brambila]

John, we obviously have disagreements now towards the definition of morality, so I can't really say we can get far in this debate unless we figure out if moral truth is absolute or if it's relative. Let me ask you- if the Afghanis believe it is morally acceptable to have sex with children, is that their culture, or is that a crime? Secondly, if one person personally believes that 1+1 is 3, does that make that person wrong, or does that simply mean the person has a difference in opinion? Finally, if the entire world followed that 1+1 is three, who would be right, the entire world, or yourself?

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I'm not so much concerned about the men being destracted, but more on the homosexual's distractions. Are they reliable? Women also make up a minority of the military's population, but we're not about to allow men and women to share showers, as that would cause a series of problems. Can we really trust the men and women in the armed forces if they are in sexual relationships part time? I don't think so. We can't prevent all emotional distraction, but we can keep it minimal.

Opebo, I think it's very sad that you don't acknowledge the problem in Thailand exists. How do you know first hand? Have you been to Thailand? Have you seen the situtation?

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

"90,000 women, girls and boys are in prostitution"
("Study Probes Thai Child Prostitution", UPI, 28 July 1998, citing IPSR)

"12,000-18,000 children including 5,510 foreigners are in prostitution." ("Study Probes Thai Child Prostitution", UPI, 28 July 1998, citing IPSR)

Royal Thai site Source


A GROWING PROBLEM

Child prostitution is a growing problem worldwide. In Asia alone, according to experts on the subject, more than one million young boys and girls are engaged in commercial sexual activity. And indications are that in every part of the world the number of children being harmed in this way is growing. Child prostitutes are found in virtually every country, including the United States, France, United Kingdom, Germany and Japan. There is an apparent increasing demand, globally; part of it fed by the fear of AIDS and the naive belief that younger sex partners are free of disease.



San FranciscO:

Bid to stop S.F.s Child prostitution

All thanks to a simple google search. Not a problem? My ass.

Nym, you may have friends who have 100% platonic relationships, but that is extremely rare. Society today is trying to get rid of the difference between men and women, but the truth is that there is a huge difference, and that our mental chemistry differenciates based on our sexes or sexual attractions.

[opebo]

Opebo, I think it's very sad that you don't acknowledge the problem in Thailand exists. How do you know first hand? Have you been to Thailand? Have you seen the situtation?

Brambilla, I live in Thailand six months of every year!  Remember that what you find on the internet is not fact - it is mostly propaganda.  There are many puritan organizations that are against prostitution, and it is convenient for them to label all prostitution 'child prostition'.  They simply make up lies.

The fact is that nearly all prositutes in Thailand are very adult women - nearly all over 20, and the majority over 25.  Even girls between 18 and 20 are incredibly rare.  And any under that age would have to be deep underground, as there are laws prohibiting under 18's in the business that are strictly enforced.  Whether I agree with those laws is not the point. 

The point is that puritans misrepresent the nature of prostitution - it is almost invariably a very grown up person voluntarily chosing sex work as a job, and typically a very well paid job.  Puritans think that sex is the worst thing that can happen to a woman - in fact it is not a big deal, and is a much more pleasant job than the alternatives of working in a factory or on a farm.

[Brambila]

Okay Opebo. I wont post anymore "propaganda" anymore even though I have friends to confirm this.  However, before I do, I have yet to see any evidence that there isn't a problem, and any sites that list this stuff as propaganda, even the government of Thailand admits it.

[opebo]

Okay Opebo. I wont post anymore "propaganda" anymore even though I have friends to confirm this.  However, before I do, I have yet to see any evidence that there isn't a problem, and any sites that list this stuff as propaganda, even the government of Thailand admits it.

Surely it comes as no suprise that a Goverment, even the Thai government, produces propaganda?

[Brambila]

Yes, it comes to a great surprise. Most governments try to hide their problems, not expose them. I find it very strange that a nation would throw out propaganda that there is a huge illegal prostitution ring in Thailand.... ri-ght.

[opebo]

Yes, it comes to a great surprise. Most governments try to hide their problems, not expose them. I find it very strange that a nation would throw out propaganda that there is a huge illegal prostitution ring in Thailand.... ri-ght.

No, the other three links you provided were Christian propaganda, but the Thai government site was more of a pacifier to molify the U.S. government and other intruders. 

Besides, I thought your problem with Thailand was this supposed child prostitution, not just plain old 'illegal prostitution'.  Do you have a problem with the adult variety?  (which in fact does exsist)

[Brambila]

The truth is, child prostitution does exist. I had a family member who went to Bangkok's Sheraton hotel, and during the afternoon there was nothing to do. So he went to the front desk and asked what kind of things the hotel offered for entertainment. Now, he was thinking a pool, a gym, maybe a little tour of Bangkok, but the first thing that the front desk clerk brought out was a binder of child pornography, and asked him to "make his selection". The binder was child prostitution services, and the clerk was asking him to make his decision on which child to hire.

[opebo]

The truth is, child prostitution does exist. I had a family member who went to Bangkok's Sheraton hotel, and during the afternoon there was nothing to do. So he went to the front desk and asked what kind of things the hotel offered for entertainment. Now, he was thinking a pool, a gym, maybe a little tour of Bangkok, but the first thing that the front desk clerk brought out was a binder of child pornography, and asked him to "make his selection". The binder was child prostitution services, and the clerk was asking him to make his decision on which child to hire.

Absurd.  The binder probably contained photos of adult women, as all such binders do - and I have seen many.  Your friend is just making things up to bolster his puritannical agenda.

[Brambila]

Okay, Opebo.

[opebo]

Okay, Opebo.

You actually believe that a Sheraton Hotel is more or less openly marketing sex with people under 18?  You need to travel a bit before you believe such nonsense about another country.

[Brambila]

My relative has been to Thailand on many occasions, and knows the CEOs of several large American subsidiaries in Thailand. He is not only familiar with the corporate culture there, but has extensive relationships with the faculty and staff of St. John's University in Bangkok. I don't know if you know, but it's a highly prestigious school. He told me that Bangkok even by their own people is considered the "City of Sin". Let me clarify that when he said that a Sheraton employee showed him a cataloge of young children that this was not shown to him as an official service of the Sheraton. By the way, he also said that there are two Sheratons in Bangkok, and I know the one he was was on a river close to where the major temples are located. He knows Thailand well, as he has visited Thiland not only as a businessman but a tourist who has many friends in the region.

The other individual who told me about the situation in Bangkok is a visitor we had at my house who is a teacher at St. John's University at Bangkok. She not only told me about the problem with child prostitution, but also told me that there is a very serious problem with women prostitution who come from the villages all over THailand for oppertunities and find prostitution as a despirate solution for income. She explained that many of the prostitutes are found in bars in which they are placed behind a glass window each holding a number waiting to be called on by the patrons of the bar. She explaind that child prostitutes are usually marketed by teenagers and young adults in front of the major hotels. ALso the hotel consiers and tourists promoters often cater to the need by foreign tourists for child prostitutes. There's a Catholic religious order in the area known as Salesians who have an orphanage that specifically attempts to help child prostitutes from a very detrimental life. This is not an opinion, this is a fact, and you are dangerously deluding yourself and perhaps others of a grave and serious problem in Thailand and southeast asia in general (especially Vietnam). In fact, that woman told us that Vietnam has become very attractive for tourists from surrounding from Hong Kong and Singapore, looking for both child and adult prostitution. And this I know for a fact, as I have literally dozens of sources from the large Vietnamese community in the bay area, who constantly recieve news from Vietnam.

I can understand why you don't see the problem, though. I only recently found out about the huge prostitution problem in San Francisco.

[Redefeatbush04]

Nym, you still arn't getting this. Putting gays in the military is committing the same crime as putting women in men's divisions. The problem is that there is a huge distraction because you're with somebody you're sexually attracted to. I'm sorry, gays cannot have the same relationships with guys as straight guys do, as guys automatically become sexual object to them.

I'm sure when they have bullets flying at their head all they will be thinking about is the guy next to them...........right..........and anyway why would you assume that guys automatically become sexual object to them. Do you know something we don't Brambila? Are you trying to tell us something? Or are you just a shallow bastard?

[??????????]

Brambilla hasn't come out yet.

[Redefeatbush04]

Brambilla hasn't come out yet.

Its ok Brambila we understand.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Given the nature of the modern military, wherein for almost all military occupations, persons of any gender are allowed to fill that position, I fail to see how having a homosexual in the military is going to be any more or less of a disruption than having a female is.

That is so right. If they don't allow Gay people to fight then why do they allow women? I mean it is more likely for a men and a women to have sex or be a disruption then a Gay guy. I mean most gay people don't just go up to you and start feeling you up and down. I mean they might flit to see if you are gay, but all you do is say I'm not gay and they don't do it again.

[MAS117]

dont ask dont tell