What It Feels Like To Be A Libertarian
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  What It Feels Like To Be A Libertarian
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Author Topic: What It Feels Like To Be A Libertarian  (Read 8879 times)
John Dibble
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2009, 06:52:22 PM »

No, Libertarianism is mostly egoism mixed with post-adolescent paranoia (why ARE you people so obsessed with guns?).

I dunno, try asking the people who are obsessed with taking them away.

No one of any consequence?

Some rather significant people with political power in this country who have been or are still rather obsessed with varying degrees of gun control, including the banning of handguns. Sure, it's not the most politically popular position to take right now because at this moment the majority is in support of gun rights, but I don't count on that lasting forever - the people are a fickle lot, after all, and support has waned before. Or where you not paying any attention?

Oh, and let's not forget about those other countries where the tyrannical dictators ensure their people don't have access to firearms. They don't want the proles to try to lynch them, after all. Or do you consider someone who can effectively have anyone living in his country killed on a whim to be "no one of any consequence"?
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Nym90
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2009, 10:16:49 AM »

No, libertarian societies don't exist today, but they did exist once upon a time.
cite? 


Well, obviously it depends on what is meant by a "libertarian society" (as I'm sure each libertarian would have his or her own definition), but I was referring to the times when government was very small compared to today; for example, the USA throughout much of the 1800's I'd think would qualify.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2009, 08:06:09 PM »

No, libertarian societies don't exist today, but they did exist once upon a time.
cite? 


Well, obviously it depends on what is meant by a "libertarian society" (as I'm sure each libertarian would have his or her own definition), but I was referring to the times when government was very small compared to today; for example, the USA throughout much of the 1800's I'd think would qualify.

Contrary to your high school history books, the federal government through much of the 1800's wasn't as hands off as you'd like to think.

A few "non-libertarian" things about the 1800's US government:
1. "Corporate welfare" in the form of land grants to railroad companies was rather routine. (though the admittedly "negative" regulation on the activities of companies was minimal)
2. Slavery being legal in the South for most of that century. The core principle of most libertarian philosophy is the concept of self-ownership - the idea that nobody owns you but you. Slavery quite obviously is the very opposite of that. There were numerous laws and Supreme Court decisions on this subject that were decidedly not libertarian.
3. The law discriminating against people based on their race. Whites were clearly favored by the government both before and after abolition, and not just in the South and not just against blacks. While many schools of libertarian thought are fine with individuals and even companies being allowed to discriminate in their private business, no school of libertarian thought would consider government racial discrimination as being acceptable.
4. Women didn't have equal rights to men. They couldn't vote, they were legally subordinate to their husbands, etc. Again, libertarians don't find this kind of discrimination from the government acceptable.
5. Take a gander at a few state constitutions to see some outdated artifacts of how the non-believers should be treated. Religious discrimination by government is also unacceptable to libertarians.

I think many libertarians point to the "good old days" of the US and its small government without considering what was fundamentally wrong with this country at the time. In some cases it's just ignorance, of course - high schools tend to only teach basic history, so a lot of important information is never learned. When our country was first founded it was certainly revolutionary at that time, but it wouldn't be good enough in the eyes of most libertarians if they actually had to live in it.
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Person Man
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2009, 09:10:16 PM »

Although....some of the Classical world seemed pretty libertarian...there were despots, but still....
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2009, 09:16:22 PM »

Big L Libertarianism automatically leads to despotism. North Korea is an example of what a big L Libertarian State would look like in short order.
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dead0man
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2009, 03:06:26 AM »

Although....some of the Classical world seemed pretty libertarian...there were despots, but still....
Except that they weren't.

Clearly libertarians are doing a horrible job explaining what libertarian means or you people are too stupid (or apathetic) to listen.  Every group gets broad brushed, but the ignorance displayed about libertarianism by non-libertarians is laughable.
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MK
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2009, 03:18:43 AM »

Russia 1990- is a mild preview of a libertarian nation.


Yea sure they offer to the gun nuts like me "You can have all ur guns", but what they don't mention is in their libertarian state the rich bad guys will always out gun the little man.
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dead0man
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2009, 03:21:01 AM »

And in a libertarian society THAT WON'T MATTER.  You can't run around with the biggest guns and force people to do what you want.  That is NOT what a libertarian society is.  No matter how many times you guys try and say that it is, it still won't be.  If you don't know what you're talking about it's really easy to not look stupid by looking it up before you post.
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John Dibble
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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2009, 11:33:05 AM »

Big L Libertarianism automatically leads to despotism. North Korea is an example of what a big L Libertarian State would look like in short order.

Care to actually explain how you came to such an absurd conclusion?
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Earth
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2009, 12:22:46 PM »

Big L Libertarianism automatically leads to despotism. North Korea is an example of what a big L Libertarian State would look like in short order.

Care to provide reasons? Otherwise you're talking about of your ass.

Ha, an almost totalitarian, extremely socially conservative state is an example of libertarianism? Good joke. 
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2009, 12:51:12 PM »

And in a libertarian society THAT WON'T MATTER.  You can't run around with the biggest guns and force people to do what you want.  That is NOT what a libertarian society is.  No matter how many times you guys try and say that it is, it still won't be.  If you don't know what you're talking about it's really easy to not look stupid by looking it up before you post.

I think Heinlein said it best: "An armed society is a polite society." 

Also, suspect that "donut" is related to Opebo.
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2009, 01:36:55 PM »

Big L Libertarianism automatically leads to despotism. North Korea is an example of what a big L Libertarian State would look like in short order.

Care to actually explain how you came to such an absurd conclusion?

Corporations and warlords would take over so it's not 'absurd'
Big L Libertarianism automatically leads to despotism. North Korea is an example of what a big L Libertarian State would look like in short order.

Care to provide reasons? Otherwise you're talking about of your ass.

Ha, an almost totalitarian, extremely socially conservative state is an example of libertarianism? Good joke. 


See above. Libertarianism creates a massive power void which gets filled rapidly.
And in a libertarian society THAT WON'T MATTER.  You can't run around with the biggest guns and force people to do what you want.  That is NOT what a libertarian society is.  No matter how many times you guys try and say that it is, it still won't be.  If you don't know what you're talking about it's really easy to not look stupid by looking it up before you post.

I think Heinlein said it best: "An armed society is a polite society." 

Also, suspect that "donut" is related to Opebo.

No, I'm not.
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Mint
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2009, 01:46:12 PM »

Big L Libertarianism automatically leads to despotism. North Korea is an example of what a big L Libertarian State would look like in short order.

Care to provide reasons? Otherwise you're talking about of your ass.

Ha, an almost totalitarian, extremely socially conservative state is an example of libertarianism? Good joke. 

No, he's implying that LP-type Libertarianism would lead to revolt and a 'workers paradise' pretty quickly.
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2009, 01:47:42 PM »

That could happen but corporatocracy or a warlord taking over are both far more likely than a workers paradise.
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Mint
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2009, 01:49:52 PM »

That could happen but corporatocracy or a warlord taking over are both far more likely than a workers paradise.
I could see that. Whatever the case may be, you can't really have that much freedom for long if stuff like open job discrimination, child labor, etc. are legal while 'statist policies' like public education or involuntary taxation no longer exist.
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2009, 01:50:36 PM »

Indeed. Try telling that to Libertarians though.
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Mint
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2009, 01:51:57 PM »

Honestly the Big L types should just start calling themselves Anarcho-Capitalists more. Because that's basically what they are. They make the sane 'smaller government' people look bad.
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dead0man
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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2009, 02:02:38 PM »

What the funk are you talking about?  You can't use force against people in a libertarian society, you would go to jail.  Where are you people getting this sh**t from?  Do you think we don't believe in police departments, court rooms and jails?  BAH!  Mint?  Seriously?
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2009, 02:03:30 PM »

big L Libertarianism is more unworkable than marxism hth
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dead0man
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2009, 02:04:25 PM »

Big blue fish taste better with pepper tgl
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Matt Damon™
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« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2009, 02:05:41 PM »

what
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dead0man
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« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2009, 02:06:25 PM »

My statement meant as much as yours.
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Mint
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« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2009, 02:07:43 PM »

What the funk are you talking about?  You can't use force against people in a libertarian society, you would go to jail.  Where are you people getting this sh**t from?  Do you think we don't believe in police departments, court rooms and jails?  BAH!  Mint?  Seriously?
No, I'm saying if people stopped paying their taxes because it wasn't required and you had huge social problems caused by stuff like child labor, private-only education, etc. being around then things would get ugly fast. I know that's not the position of the vast majority of libertarians here, but a lot of the Big L types literally agreed with what I posted.

As for the topic, I agreed with most of the article but once again am left wondering if Bono is capable of having an original thought. Ever.
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dead0man
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« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2009, 02:17:36 PM »

Even those people want cops and jails don't they?  And if they don't, they are NOT libertarians, big L or otherwise.  That would be anarchy...right?
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Mint
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« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2009, 02:34:26 PM »

Even those people want cops and jails don't they?  And if they don't, they are NOT libertarians, big L or otherwise.  That would be anarchy...right?
Maybe, but it's sort of irrelevant because without any taxes (the old LP position and still a common one) law enforcement would get so underfunded there might as well be no government.
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